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Re: [Phys-l] Was, reading PER literature

for starters.

"The paradox is this: as a lingering result of the golden age, we still
have the finest scientists in the world in the United States. But we also
have the worst science education in the industrialized world."

I assume the above is the quote. Did I disagree w/ it?
Of course teaching has changed. especially after about 1960. I have a HS lab manual (Millikan ca. 1910). many of the xpts. and their format are the same as I did in HS and as a freshman at UCSB. Current ones are different, but still lectures reign supreme. That's what I meant. I disagree w/ his crunch analogy -- inflation then stasis is more accurate. His mining one is quite apt. That's the way it's been 'till recently all over the world. Now "we" expect to teach all instead of a few with the expected result. As I've posted before, immediately after sputnik the freshman class at UCSB more than doubled; the sophomore class was back to normal.

His reason for improving sci. ed. is quite admirable -- necessary for a "Jeffersonian Demo." My belief is forget it.

p.s. here's an example of the problem the rulers would have from an enlightened populace. Remember the liquid bomb scare? supposedly, and the chemist member can confirm or refute this, the reaction to make the bomb takes about 30 minutes and may prematurely explode being a "fizzle". Can you imagine someone successfully doing this in a crowded plane?
One version:

another view:

Jack Uretsky wrote:

Who is this "ruling class" you're referring to. Can you name some of the individuals?
The topic, insofar as I recall it, is, "what did Goodstein say?"
I've given the quote. If you want to disagree, then the person to address is Goodstein, who, as a Cal Tech Provost, gets a unique view of undergraduate education.
What's the basis of no change "over the past hundred years"?
That's demonstrably untrue, just by comparing textbooks.

On Sat, 9 Dec 2006, Bernard Cleyet wrote:

If the teaching methods haven't changed over the last hundred years and
they produced a plurality of Nobelists, etc. Why shouldn't that
continue? I think those succeeded despite the poor teaching and will
continue. Could not the "bad" method be "good" for those? The
operative point is the large pop. and superior economy. However, I'd
expect the number to remain constant while those societies w/ better
methods and or larger pops. and or increasing economic status will
eclipse the US. I hear the motivation of one sector of the ruling class
to get out of Viet, I mean Iraq, is so "we" can tackle the real enemy,
China. Tough.

Paradox resolved. I'm curious as to the ratio of some measure(s) of
scientific excellence WRT pop., GDP/person, etc. Those above the line
would be due to "better" teaching?

bc, who may comment further after a read.

Jack Uretsky wrote:

Hi all-
I agree with "stopped reading too soon". The familiar tactic is
to trivialize a concern by focussing on an irrelevance; in the classic
pathology between spouses, the response to a spousal concern is "you're so
beautiful (handsome) when you're angry!" (I've even had this from a class
I chewed out for not preparing for a test!).
The operative comment, from one who should know, was:
"The paradox is this: as a lingering result of the golden age, we still
have the finest scientists in the world in the United States. But we also
have the worst science education in the industrialized world."
We have met the enemy, Bernard, and it is high time to admit that
he is us!

On Sat, 9 Dec 2006, Bernard Cleyet wrote:

Comment from only reading the first three (two?) paragraphs. Like the
famous turn of the cent. (19/20) Physicist, I think he spoke too soon --
since then there has been an explosion, tho minor, in cosmology and
related Physics -- e.g. neutrino mass, and dark energy -- the U. is
accelerating its expansion. Also in equip., e.g. STM and AFM.

bc, prob. stopped reading too soon.

Rauber, Joel wrote:

Is this it

Regardless, its interesting

Joel Rauber
Department of Physics - SDSU

| -----Original Message-----
| From:
| [] On Behalf
| Of Jack Uretsky
| Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 12:41 PM
| To: Forum for Physics Educators
| Subject: Re: [Phys-l] Reading PER literature
| There was a talk (copied on the web) by Goodstein (Cal Tech)
| pointing out that the US is doing graduate science education
| for the world, while U.S.
| students can't make it into our grad schools. He was
| deploring the state of US undergard education. He was
| certainly knowledgeable about the admissions policies
| respecting physics grad students at Cal Tech.
| Regards,
| Jack
| On Wed, 6 Dec 2006, John Clement wrote:
| > One interpretation is that there is a problem with
| education in their
| > countries. It could be that the prestigious schools there
| are full,
| > or the social climate here is alluring.
| >
| > As to superiority of American schools, this is often a self

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