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*From*: "John Clement" <clement@hal-pc.org>*Date*: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 10:00:25 -0500

After 10 years of testing, the results are essentially the same from one

year to the next, and do not deviate more than about 10%. The results are

depressingly similar no matter who the math teachers are. Actually the best

math teachers have been chased out of the school and they claim that public

school students are better in math. This is consistent with the metastudy

comparing private and public schools. The private schools do not do better

when the SES effect is accounted for, and Catholic schools are lower in

math.

John M. Clement

Houston, TX

Hi all-

Such numbers are meaningless, as are all experimental results, unless one

knows the statistical and systematic uncertainties associated with the

results.. When the experiment falls in the realm of the social

sciences, as research attempts in education must, the systematic

uncertainties merit extensive discussion and are difficult to quantify.

Among the systematic uncertainties are the effects of the time and

placement of the experiment, the precise definitions of the categories

compared, and the identification of relevant factors.

The art of estimating systematic uncertainties seems to improve when the

experiment is repeated many times and the deviations in quantitative

results are accounted for. When systematic uncertainties are under

control, numerical results from different experiments will fluctuate

in accordance with statistical predictions.

Regards,

Jack

On Sun, 13 Jul 2008, John Clement wrote:

My estimate comes straight from the Lawson Piagetian test published inhis

book. 75% of the honors students do exhibit proportional reasoningwhile

only 25% of the regular students exhibit proportional reasoning. Sincethe

really low students do not take physics 30% is a reasonable estimate forthose

proportional reasoning.

John M. Clement

Houston, TX

John,

I would venture to guess that the students in your private prep school

probably are more likely to be at the formal operational level than

operationalin average public schools, so your 30% estimate may be a bit high.

Mark Shapiro

-----Original Message-----

According to Shayer & Adey students need to be at the formal

Sincelevel to be able to understand a 3 variable equation such as F=ma.

proportionalityonly about 30% of US students are capable of understanding

orwhen they are seniors in HS, algebra is literally impossible for most

students even in HS. Pushing advanced abstract concepts down to lower

grades is absurd when students do not understand proportional reasoning

collegeconservation reasoning.

Incidentally the 30% figure comes from my testing of students in a

prep private school in Houston.

If this seems a bit late on the topic, it is because I have been on a

river

boat tour of Russia for 2 weeks.

John M. Clement

Houston, TX

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**References**:**[Phys-l] Ca mandates 8th-grade algebra test***From:*Bernard Cleyet <bernardcleyet@redshift.com>

**[Phys-l] Ca mandates 8th-grade algebra test***From:*Robert Yeend <ryeend@sbcglobal.net>

**Re: [Phys-l] Ca mandates 8th-grade algebra test***From:*"Wes Davis" <wlrdavis@earthlink.net>

**Re: [Phys-l] Ca mandates 8th-grade algebra test***From:*"Shapiro, Mark" <mshapiro@Exchange.FULLERTON.EDU>

**Re: [Phys-l] Ca mandates 8th-grade algebra test***From:*"John Clement" <clement@hal-pc.org>

**Re: [Phys-l] Ca mandates 8th-grade algebra test***From:*"Shapiro, Mark" <mshapiro@Exchange.FULLERTON.EDU>

**Re: [Phys-l] Ca mandates 8th-grade algebra test***From:*"John Clement" <clement@hal-pc.org>

**Re: [Phys-l] Ca mandates 8th-grade algebra test***From:*Jack Uretsky <jlu@hep.anl.gov>

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