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Re: [Phys-L] microwave ovens/ vaccines

Kyle,
- You have again skipped your homework and taken a massive shortcut in
trying to convince me and others that your viewpoint is correct.
- Your information base for your impressive and apparently convincing
statements is rather narrow. For example, you have cited nothing from the
Board Certified Pediatricians who work with Autism patients and who testify
as to autism causation, including causation by vaccines. These are the
persons who speak the most in the documentary, Autism: Made in the USA.
This documentary looks at the issue from 3 or 4 sides - it is not simply
raving about one point of view. Have you watched it? Have you read my
transcript for this documentary? Have you looked at the other newer vaccine
documentaries? Have you watched the online videos by researchers who claim
there is no connection between vaccines and autism?
- Every statement you write I find begging for unbiased research.
- Earlier you mentioned that some of us are into "conspiracy theory."
Somehow one loses popularity if he admits or asserts that he or she is into
conspiracy theory. The simple fact is that we would have no laws against
conspiracy if conspiracy did not exist. Do you recall when about 10 of the
tobacco industry executives were lined up and charged with conspiracy? Do
you think that this type of persons would actually conspire to get persons
addicted to their products? I believe that accepting our society as it
actually exists affords us the greatest safety, and that includes accepting
the reality that some conspiracies do exist.
- OK, let's look at the viewpoint of one of my locals, Steven Salzberg,
whose position is that vaccines do not cause autism. Just search < salzberg
autism vaccines youtube > and you will encounter his talk in 5 parts. I
also wrote a transcript of this talk and would be willing to share it with
you. I find a transcript necessary because I will tend to forget parts of a
talk and because I cannot refer to particular statements as well. He
addresses many points in a professional manner, but in order to maintain a
balance I would urge you to access the opposing arguments addressing the
same points. Yes, you will be wading through a thicket - there is no
substitute for doing the homework. It is so tempting to just listen to the
few-liners of the CDC and other authorities and to be hugely relieved that
we are not called upon to do our own literature research.
- Have you spent any time with persons with more severe cases of autism? I
have, and I have found the odd behaviors, sounds and movements quite
jarring, but witnessing this does increase incentive to really arrive at an
unshakeble understanding of what has happened.
- You, as nearly everyone else, have short-changed our coming generations
by declining to do a thorough search of the literature in order to actually
understand.
Bill Norwood



On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 3:30 PM, Forinash III, Kyle <kforinas@ius.edu>
wrote:

Bill I do care very much about ‘my youngest descendants’ and I am very
sorry for your personal experiences connected to autism, whatever they may
be.

However. Before the MMR vaccine was introduced in 1971 there were around
500 deaths per year from Measles, around 50 deaths a year from Mumps and 20
or so deaths per year from Rubella in the US alone. After the vaccine the
number of deaths from these diseases dropped to less than 1 per year. These
are DEATHS; the number suffering from these diseases was more than 2000
times the death rate. These are absolute figures; the total population just
about doubled in this time frame so the percentage change is even more
impressive. Vaccines save lives, and not just a few. I’m all for stopping
vaccination when and if these diseases ever disappear but, based on today’s
news (
http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/27/health/harvard-university-mumps-outbreak/index.html),
they have not.

The recent increase in Autism diagnosis has occurred since around 2000
(mainly due to better diagnosis) but the current vaccine has been in use
since 1971. Autism affects males at a rate 4.5 times that of females. Twin
studies show there is a genetic component to autism. It occurs at about the
same rate in all racial, ethnic and socioeconomic groups around the world.
It occurs at about the same time in life (vaccinated or not). These factors
do not add up to a vaccine causing autism. Correlation does not prove
causation.

I do not have the resources to do my own scientific study on the
connection between autism and vaccines. This would require taking national
data over decades from millions of people. I do not have time to get a PhD
in immunology. So who should I trust? Certainly not the vaccine
manufactures. Should we go with anecdotal evidence? I don’t think so.
Fortunately the CDC (funded by the government, not the vaccine industry)
has done my homework for me. A team of experts, far more qualified than I,
have looked at the evidence and said "To date, the studies continue to show
that vaccines are not associated with ASD.” Should we keep looking? Sure
I’m all for that! Are there contrarian views who have done studies? Yes,
and this is true about nearly every topic you can mention. Does that mean
we get to pick and choose who we want to believe? I think we go with the
best available information and I’m going to bet the CDC has the best
information. Yes they could end up being wrong and I’ll be the first to
change my mind if they come up with different data. Yes, we should find the
cause of autism, whatever it is. Should we stop vaccinating? I sincerely
hope not, at lease not yet, for the sake of my grand kids and everyone
else’s.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/topics.html

kyle

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 17:36:12 +0000
From: "Forinash III, Kyle" <kforinas@ius.edu>
To: "phys-l@www.phys-l.org" <phys-l@www.phys-l.org>
Subject: Re: [Phys-L] microwave ovens
Message-ID: <30FB63AE-A03E-4798-93DA-7E486C424C68@ius.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi

Rob Brotherton in his book ?Suspicious Minds; why we believe conspiracy
theories? (
http://www.amazon.com/Suspicious-Minds-Believe-Conspiracy-Theories/dp/1472915615/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1461690107&sr=8-9&keywords=conspiracy+theory+books)
makes the case that some people are more susceptible to conspiracies than
others and that we all are susceptible to some degree. The tendency is that
if you believe that vaccines cause autism you also believe Kennedy was
killed by some mysterious cabal, microwaves cause cancer, fluorine is bad,
etc. Brotherton argues these people aren?t stupid, they can give very
involved, complex, logical arguments for their beliefs. But they often
commit the fallacy (among others) that lack of evidence proves that
something is being hidden or covered up. It is very hard to dispel that
kind of thinking. The book is a fun read; I recommend it as giving insight
into how conspiracists think.

As for microwaves and cell phones causing cancer; if this were true,
there would have been a very dramatic and sudden increase in cancers
following the widespread introduction of these devices. Historical cancer
rates are available from the CDC:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm and do not
show a sudden increase (unless of course, maybe the CDC is covering up
something ?.!). You CAN see a distinct increase in lung cancer in men in
the 40s following the widespread increase in smoking in the 20s and 30s,
followed by a parallel increase of lung cancer among women two decades
later as it became more acceptable for women to smoke. Most other cancer
rates have remained approximately constant since the 30s with the exception
of stomach cancer which has dropped significantly since the 40s, most
likely due to better diets (fresh fruits and vegetables were only available
seasonally until we started importing them year round).

kyle




------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 13:57:56 -0400
From: Bill Norwood <bnorwood111@gmail.com>
To: Phys-L@phys-l.org
Subject: Re: [Phys-L] microwave ovens
Message-ID:
<CAExVuJM6Nfx_muvn5=
015HB7A45x6vKzUGAUuToHevkS81FXTQ@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Kyle,
- While what follows might sound somewhat harsh toward you, please bear
in
mind that I am acting as an advocate for our youngest members of society
who cannot possibly speak up for themselves in a qualified way.
- What you just wrote required just a few minutes of work, which falls
far
short of doing your homework, as I recommended, in order to really
understand whether vaccines (and other environmental substances as well)
might cause autism.
- I did not claim that vaccines cause autism, but I have answered the
question satisfactorily for myself. I merely ask others to do the same
thing, especially if they already have small children as descendants or
will have such in the future.
- The investment of hundred of hours or so of work required to satisfy
one's own need to know, might well save the half million hours that an
unfortunate child and an unfortunate family might suffer if indeed it
turns
out that either a particular vaccine, or group of vaccines, or timing of
vaccine use, or health of child at vaccination time, or combo of
vaccine(s)
with other environmental contaminants. indeed did cause the autism.
- If you will indeed do your homework you will encounter both
well-referenced research denying a connection and the tearful parents who
observe their own children daily who noticed a remarkable correlation
between vaccination time and autism symptoms onset time.
- I know of some of the pain from my own family of origin as well as from
other relatives' experiences, all of which are of course anecdotes, which
is to say that of course I cannot prove for the cases I mention that
vaccines did cause the autism.
- Again, please do your homework and you will find yourself caring more
about your youngest descendants, even if they can never be anything but
anecdotes.
Thanks, Bill Norwood

-------------------------------
If we knew what is was we were doing, it would not be called research,
would it?

kyle forinash
kforinas@ius.edu
http://pages.iu.edu/~kforinas/




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