Re: [Phys-l] [ncnaapt] another crackpot idea from the California legislative assembly

[Anthony Farley <tonyfarley@mac.com>]

The question that needs to be asked, and I don't know the answer with respect to Piezoelectric energy generation, is whether the energy is captured energy that would escape into the environment if it were not captured by the piezoelectric generator, or if it is a more direct form of energy generation, like a generator.

For example, you could set up wind turbines that would capture the wind produced by passing cars, or large microphones to capture the sound generated by the passing cars.  Neither of these methods would cost any in gasoline consumption because they are capturing wasted energy.  No violation of the the First Law.  I can think of many others, such as capturing the heat that rises from the road, or heat generated by the tires on the road.  Some, like capturing the heat generated by the tires on the road, might actually improve the gas milage of the cars.

A naive application of the first law is not always going to tell the whole story.  Hell, that's why hybrid cars are more efficient!  Look to the Second Law!

Tony Farley


Howe
On Feb 26, 2011, at 4:49 PM, Bernard Cleyet wrote:

> Don't need to do any detailed analysis.  All one need do is accept** Nöther's theorem WRT time symmetry, i.e. conservation of energy.  If one is obtaining electrical energy from an automobile one is obviously getting it from it's gasoline.  There is no other source.
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> bc remember's Peter Redmond's rule, if one can use the energy principle do so, it's easier.
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> ** Joan's cousin, John, has a rather accessible proof.
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> Noether
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> On 2011, Feb 26, , at 16:23, egonjoe wrote:
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> > I hate to jump in and get over my head, but the idea is based on the assumption that the cars are going to be on the road anyway.  Isn't the devil in the details?  There will be friction to move from one depressed area of piezoelectric to the next, which involves the car climbing back up the hill by the exact same amount that the tire has sunken to generate the compression of the piezoelectric.  Sounds like a wash energetically, but it also sounds like a situation which could be different than we would expect given a questionable set of assumptions.  Seems like a measurement would be more convincing. Perhaps the elasticity of the soft tire causing work against friction and robbing gas mileage would end up depositing energy in the piezo rather than heat. There, I've said it.  It's one of those complicated real world physics problems that we always seem to get wrong with a calculator or a simulator. 
> > Happy analysis,
> > Charles Jordan
> > On Feb 26, 2011, at 9:30 AM, Bernard Cleyet wrote:
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> > > Comments/questions on AB 306 (Gatto): Energy: piezoelectric transducers: study.
> > >
> > > This bill would require the Energy Commission to conduct research on the feasibility of generating electricity using piezoelectric transducers under major roadways as a renewable resource, by collaborating with the Department of Transportation to establish a pilot project that would employ piezo-based energy harvesting technology. The bill would allow the Energy Commission to expend the moneys in the Alternative and Renewable Fuel and Vehicle Technology Fund, upon appropriation by the Legislature, to implement this research as part of the Alternative and Renewable Fuel and Vehicle Technology Program. The Energy Commission would be required to report its findings in the integrated energy policy report adopted in 2013. These provisions would be repealed on January 1, 2015.
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> > > my post:
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> > > The proponents of this suggested method, evidently, aren't physicists. Physicists know that this is not a source of energy, but just a transfer of energy from gasoline that powers the vehicle to electricity in the roadway device. Such a method will decrease the efficiency of the vehicle by increasing the rolling friction. Think about it by answering the question, why do under inflated tires reduce fuel mileage, and visa versa?
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> > > bc
> > >
> > > bc forgot to add: using gasoline to generate electricity directly would be more efficient than this crackpot method!
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