Re: Non-conservative forces in a liquid dielectric

[Ludwik Kowalski <kowalskil@MAIL.MONTCLAIR.EDU>]

On Friday, May 30, 2003 Pentcho Valev wrote:

> This is just one of the numerous myths in thermodynamics,
> Ludwik. When a gas pushes a piston, isothermally, it converts
> heat into work without creating disorder elsewhere.

Please keep in mind that thermodynamics is not my specialty.
You are  talking about an engine, a cyclic device delivering net
work. I know how to calculate the p*dv work, done on an agent,
when an ideal gas is allowed to expand very slowly, at constant
temperature. The same work must be done by the agent, to
compress the gas slowly to the initial state at constant
temperature. The net work in each cycle is zero.

Yes,  your constant-temperature electrostatic engine
(presumably performing net work in each cycle) works
differently. You allow the plates to come closer to each other
in a vacuum, (work done on the agent) and you separate
the plates in a liquid dielectric, such as pure water. You argue
that work done by the agent (in separating plates inside the
liquid dielectric) is smaller than work done on the agent,
during each constant-temperature cycle.

Is this a correct description of your proposal? In my mind you
are describing a perpetual motion machine of the second
kind. Please show me what is wrong with this "accusation."

As far as I know the rules are as follows. We must accept
data coming from real reproducible experiments, no matter
how many theories they disagree with. But gedanken
experiments are different in that respect; we accept their
conclusions only when these conclusions do not conflict
with accepted theories. Do you agree with these rules?
Ludwik Kowalski