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On Oct 27, 2021, at 11:00 AM, phys-l-request@mail.phys-l.org wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. global warming (Anthony Lapinski)
2. Re: global warming (Marx, David)
3. Re: Ex: Re: global warming (John Mallinckrodt)
4. Re: Ex: Re: global warming (Marx, David)
5. Re: Ex: Re: global warming (John Mallinckrodt)
6. NGSS and kinematics (Joe Bellina)
7. Re: global warming (John Mallinckrodt)
8. Re: global warming (Zani, Gerald)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 20:30:49 -0400
From: Anthony Lapinski <alapinski@pds.org>
To: John Denker via Phys-l <phys-l@mail.phys-l.org>
Subject: [Phys-L] global warming
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A colleague just sent me this link to the new HHMI video on climate change,
which was premiered/posted tonight. I liked the ice core segment.
https://youtu.be/DYhHyZb46I0
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 01:25:02 +0000
From: "Marx, David" <dtmarx@ilstu.edu>
To: "Phys-L@Phys-L.org" <Phys-L@Phys-L.org>
Subject: Re: [Phys-L] global warming
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A few corrections to the video...(which looks like a short, modern version of Inconvenient Truth)
Hurricane, tornado, flood, and drought data all demonstrate declines in both frequency and severity since 1900.
California fires are not due to climate change. Southern California is a desert, it remains a desert. There's nothing new about the fires, except now they are often the result of arson, bad forest and water management, or bad electrical equipment.
According to climate scientists, water vapor accounts for about 85% of the greenhouse effect. CO2 is 3 to 5 percent.
There has been a change in albedo as large ice areas have melted since 1825. However, they are correct that it hasn't changed significantly in the past 20 years.
For the ice cores, in every case, temperature change leads the change in the CO2 concentration on the scale of hundreds of years, not the other way around (according to 9 peer-reviewed and published studies looking at the smaller time scales where those changes occur. You can see this in the data plotted to the screen in the video for some of the changes. The ice core data does indicate that its been more than 800 000 years since the CO2 concentration was higher than 300 ppm.
The part I liked best is talk about carbon sequestration and capture.
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Subject: [Phys-L] global warming
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A colleague just sent me this link to the new HHMI video on climate change, which was premiered/posted tonight. I liked the ice core segment.
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 06:08:33 +0000
From: John Mallinckrodt <ajm@cpp.edu>
To: "Phys-L@phys-l.org" <Phys-L@phys-l.org>
Subject: Re: [Phys-L] Ex: Re: global warming
Message-ID: <370D9CDB-A650-4977-AB58-828A672D23FC@cpp.edu>
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On Oct 26, 2021, at 6:25 PM, Marx, David via Phys-l <phys-l@mail.phys-l.org> wrote:
Hurricane, tornado, flood, and drought data all demonstrate declines in both frequency and severity since 1900.
References, please.
California fires are not due to climate change.
References, please.
There's nothing new about the fires, except now they are often the result of arson, bad forest and water management, or bad electrical equipment.
References, please.
For the ice cores, in every case, temperature change leads the change in the CO2 concentration on the scale of hundreds of years, not the other way around (according to 9 peer-reviewed and published studies looking at the smaller time scales where those changes occur. You can see this in the data plotted to the screen in the video for some of the changes. The ice core data does indicate that its been more than 800 000 years since the CO2 concentration was higher than 300 ppm.
Yawn. This really isn?t rocket science.
https://www.sunysuffolk.edu/explore-academics/faculty-and-staff/faculty-websites/scott-mandia/global_warming/global_warming_misinformation_co2_lags_not_leads.html
John Mallinckrodt
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 12:52:26 +0000
From: "Marx, David" <dtmarx@ilstu.edu>
To: John Mallinckrodt <ajm@cpp.edu>, "Phys-L@phys-l.org"
<Phys-L@phys-l.org>
Subject: Re: [Phys-L] Ex: Re: global warming
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John do your own research into the data. I have done it for over 20 years. Your turn. If you just want to believe what people tell you about scientific data, that's your business.
The link you provided does not say anything different than I said. Your point?
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From: John Mallinckrodt <ajm@cpp.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2021 1:08:33 AM
To: Phys-L@phys-l.org <Phys-L@phys-l.org>
Cc: Marx, David <dtmarx@ilstu.edu>
Subject: Re: Ex: Re: [Phys-L] global warming
[This message came from an external source. If suspicious, report to abuse@ilstu.edu<mailto:abuse@ilstu.edu>]
On Oct 26, 2021, at 6:25 PM, Marx, David via Phys-l <phys-l@mail.phys-l.org> wrote:
Hurricane, tornado, flood, and drought data all demonstrate declines in both frequency and severity since 1900.
References, please.
California fires are not due to climate change.
References, please.
There's nothing new about the fires, except now they are often the result of arson, bad forest and water management, or bad electrical equipment.
References, please.
For the ice cores, in every case, temperature change leads the change in the CO2 concentration on the scale of hundreds of years, not the other way around (according to 9 peer-reviewed and published studies looking at the smaller time scales where those changes occur. You can see this in the data plotted to the screen in the video for some of the changes. The ice core data does indicate that its been more than 800 000 years since the CO2 concentration was higher than 300 ppm.
Yawn. This really isn?t rocket science.
https://www.sunysuffolk.edu/explore-academics/faculty-and-staff/faculty-websites/scott-mandia/global_warming/global_warming_misinformation_co2_lags_not_leads.html<https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sunysuffolk.edu%2Fexplore-academics%2Ffaculty-and-staff%2Ffaculty-websites%2Fscott-mandia%2Fglobal_warming%2Fglobal_warming_misinformation_co2_lags_not_leads.html&data=04%7C01%7C%7C7f97f7f3a29f4141409708d999103678%7C085f983a0b694270b71d10695076bafe%7C1%7C0%7C637709117177510149%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=asCiZyH5LTp7fyZicZ1Hjm3hYRFahCya74q0vqCFD2E%3D&reserved=0>
John Mallinckrodt
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:57:30 +0000
From: John Mallinckrodt <ajm@cpp.edu>
To: "Marx, David" <dtmarx@ilstu.edu>
Cc: "Phys-L@phys-l.org" <Phys-L@phys-l.org>
Subject: Re: [Phys-L] Ex: Re: global warming
Message-ID: <425ABA01-5CEE-4A7A-AA62-15E98A3E335F@cpp.edu>
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David,
I don?t need to do my own research because scientists who DO do the research HAVE done the research and the verdict is now overwhelming and unequivocal.
And regarding your question about my point, it was that it is well understood why temperature changes always preceded CO2 changes until the last couple of centuries and why it is the other way around now. Indeed, all it takes is putting on one?s thinking cap.
So what was YOUR point in calling out the ice core data?
John Mallinckrodt
On Oct 27, 2021, at 5:52 AM, Marx, David <dtmarx@ilstu.edu> wrote:
?
John do your own research into the data. I have done it for over 20 years. Your turn. If you just want to believe what people tell you about scientific data, that's your business.
The link you provided does not say anything different than I said. Your point?
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________________________________
From: John Mallinckrodt <ajm@cpp.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2021 1:08:33 AM
To: Phys-L@phys-l.org <Phys-L@phys-l.org>
Cc: Marx, David <dtmarx@ilstu.edu>
Subject: Re: Ex: Re: [Phys-L] global warming
[This message came from an external source. If suspicious, report to abuse@ilstu.edu<mailto:abuse@ilstu.edu>]
On Oct 26, 2021, at 6:25 PM, Marx, David via Phys-l <phys-l@mail.phys-l.org> wrote:
Hurricane, tornado, flood, and drought data all demonstrate declines in both frequency and severity since 1900.
References, please.
California fires are not due to climate change.
References, please.
There's nothing new about the fires, except now they are often the result of arson, bad forest and water management, or bad electrical equipment.
References, please.
For the ice cores, in every case, temperature change leads the change in the CO2 concentration on the scale of hundreds of years, not the other way around (according to 9 peer-reviewed and published studies looking at the smaller time scales where those changes occur. You can see this in the data plotted to the screen in the video for some of the changes. The ice core data does indicate that its been more than 800 000 years since the CO2 concentration was higher than 300 ppm.
Yawn. This really isn?t rocket science.
https://www.sunysuffolk.edu/explore-academics/faculty-and-staff/faculty-websites/scott-mandia/global_warming/global_warming_misinformation_co2_lags_not_leads.html<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sunysuffolk.edu%2Fexplore-academics%2Ffaculty-and-staff%2Ffaculty-websites%2Fscott-mandia%2Fglobal_warming%2Fglobal_warming_misinformation_co2_lags_not_leads.html&data=04%7C01%7Cajm%40cpp.edu%7C4b023c07ed8948d6223608d99948a1d5%7C164ba61e39ec4f5d89ffaa1f00a521b4%7C0%7C0%7C637709359523994612%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=0glahPPkwGac2zywzGYduKl4CHJfL5Kp3maUEiLVrkI%3D&reserved=0>
John Mallinckrodt
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------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 11:26:43 -0400
From: Joe Bellina <inquirybellina@comcast.net>
To: Phys-L <Phys-L@Phys-L.org>
Subject: [Phys-L] NGSS and kinematics
Message-ID: <C2706403-A743-4233-ABF7-92476E398D85@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Good morning,
I?ve been working on hs physical science standards that align with NGSS and I noted that there is nothing about kinematics in NGSS. Does anyone know why that is? I hope it isn?t because they think it was adequately covered in middle school or elementary, because as we know that is generally not the case.
best,
joe
Joseph J. Bellina, Jr. Ph.D.
Retired Professor of Physics
Co-Director, Northern Indiana Science, Mathematics, and Engineering Collaborative (NISMEC)
Consultant I-STEM Network
574-276-8294
inquirybellina@comcast.net
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 15:38:08 +0000
From: John Mallinckrodt <ajm@cpp.edu>
To: "Phys-L: Forum for Physics Teachers" <Phys-L@phys-l.org>
Subject: Re: [Phys-L] global warming
Message-ID: <2A4B69DE-7A63-40B6-B381-740848C201CB@cpp.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
After my last message in this thread, my conversation with David inadvertently went offline and has now been resolved. I have his permission to amend the public record here with this verbatim transcript.
[David]
If you listen to the video or watch the same segment in Inconvenient Truth, the implication is that increasing CO2 leads to increases in temperature, but the data does not show that for the ice core data. Otherwise, I liked that they showed the details of how the samples are taken and analyzed.
I only want scientific data presented accurately so it can be interpreted correctly.
Well, then the atmospheric scientists that monitor weather data trends, such as hurricanes, tornadoes, droughts, etc. should be believed by you. Even the IPCC included the fact that there is no increase in frequency nor severity of these weather events. The narrative that they are increasing is repeated over and over again in the media, by politicians, and clueless scientists, so people believe it to be true.
Otherwise, you can easily get the historic data and see it for yourself. I do this regularly for my course on Energy and the Environment?get the data as far back as I can get and as most recent as available, make a graph, and see what it looks like. Or, you can Google for the data and then select images to see the graphs other people have made.
[John]
So it?s possible that I misunderstood your point which seemed to me to be that the current well-documented and unprecedentedly rapid climate change isn?t happening or, at the very least, doesn?t have anthropogenic origins. If so, I apologize.
Did I?
[David]
Thanks. The current warming trend is about 0.11 C per decade, so that is worrisome and the increased CO2 in the atmosphere must be dealt with, so I did not criticize those aspects of the video.
For a long time, scientists have seen changes in the environment of some kind or another and taken the easy road and just blamed it on global warming/climate change WITHOUT considering other possible explanations. That?s poor science. If we are to sort out what?s going on with climate and improve our models, we really need to address the bult in, very strong bias, and return to being more objective in sorting out facts. That?s why I try to show my students the actual data and trends without the hype that they get in all their other courses from professors that never look at the data and what it tells us.
[John]
Okay, so we are on the same page.
So perhaps one final question:
Because of your concern for accuracy and comportment with the data, may I assume that you point out to your students that there is a perfectly simple explanation for why temperature changes preceded CO2 changes for the last several billion years and why it IS* the other way around now?
(And please note the emphasis on the word ?is? since the astonishing spike in CO2 began over a century ago and the correlated spike in temperature has only emerged from the noise over the last several decades.)
[David]
Yes, of course that is discussed as we compare measured global temperatures and both CO2 and methane trends.
[John]
Okay, great. And again I apologize for misinterpreting your point although I hope you will agree that it was a pretty easy misinterpretation to make.
On Oct 27, 2021, at 6:57 AM, John Mallinckrodt <ajm@cpp.edu<mailto:ajm@cpp.edu>> wrote:
David,
I don?t need to do my own research because scientists who DO do the research HAVE done the research and the verdict is now overwhelming and unequivocal.
And regarding your question about my point, it was that it is well understood why temperature changes always preceded CO2 changes until the last couple of centuries and why it is the other way around now. Indeed, all it takes is putting on one?s thinking cap.
So what was YOUR point in calling out the ice core data?
John Mallinckrodt
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 11:58:58 -0400
From: "Zani, Gerald" <gerald_zani@brown.edu>
To: Phys-L@phys-l.org
Subject: Re: [Phys-L] global warming
Message-ID:
<CAM0hPAxovAG7XDU9jNGWAThY+4wnk8=-rJYCjK0eTEcg9Tgi9A@mail.gmail.com>
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Most Phys-lers, myself included, will first hesitate to jump into this
argument because of the emotion. But I will try to gently and colloquially
"Love it back", here goes. Fingers crossed.
One of the great triumphs of 20th-century physics is understanding the role
of CO2 in the atmosphere.
Yes, the water vapor has a role, a very important role. This is correct.
It interacts with the CO2.
If you get more CO2, then...
Please read and reflect on this:
?Infrared radiation and planetary temperature,?
Phys. Today 64, 33?37 (Jan. 2011).
?The atmosphere, if CO2 were removed from it, would cool enough that much
of the water vapor would rain out. That precipitation, in turn, would cause
further cooling and ultimately spiral the Earth into a globally glaciated
snowball state. It is only the presence of CO2 that keeps earth?s
atmosphere warm enough to contain water vapor. Conversely, increasing CO2
would warm the atmosphere and ultimately result in greater water-vapor
content- a now well understood situation known as water vapor feedback.?
"Though the first calculation of the warming of Earth due to CO2 increase
was carried out by Arrhenius in 1896, accurate CO2 and water-vapor
spectroscopy and a fully correct formulation of planetary energy balance
did not come to-gether until the work of Syukuro Manabe and Richard
Wetherald in 1967. With that development, the theory was brought to its
modern state of understanding. *It has withstood all subsequent challenges
and without question represents one of the great triumphs of 20th-century
physics.*"
There are some really great new demos on climate science. I will happily
provide more info if requested.
Love You All,
- JZ
--
Gerald Zani
Senior Engineering Technician
Brown University School of Engineering
(401) 863-9571
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