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Re: [Phys-L] sequence

If you are modeling with freshmen, Shady Side Academy has some physics first modeling materials for freshmen thay start s with energy. Weve used that for 4 years w good results.


.:. Sent from a touchscreen .:.
Paul Lulai



-------- Original message --------
From: James Cibulka
Date:03/20/2014 8:47 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: phys-l@phys-l.org
Subject: Re: [Phys-L] sequence

Wow!
Thanks for all the feedback on sequence. I think this group is amazing and I am honored to be part of it.
I love how so many people have mentioned the spiral approach. In the usual modeling approach, all the motion is first and forces are next. What I am doing currently has a spiral approach, and as long as we stay based on modeling cycles, I am flexible.
Mind you, these are 9th graders and we have to teach the concepts and math as needed.
With ngss on the horizon, anyone think I am not nuts to believe momentum should be taught between constant velocity and balanced forces? Just simple 1D momentum.
Combines mass and velocity, can be segued into momentum transfer rate (force) and is a conserved quantity ( which will come back again).

Thanks again for all the feedback. Reading your responses is like being a kid and hanging out with rock stars.
Even you, tom pfieffer!

Jim Cibulka
Kirkwood high school
On Mar 20, 2014, at 11:00 AM, phys-l-request@phys-l.org wrote:

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Sequence (thomaspfeiffer2002@yahoo.com)
2. Re: Sequence (Robert Cohen)
3. Re: Sequence (Philip Keller)
4. Re: Sequence (Marty Weiss)
5. Re: [SPAM] Re: Sequence (Anthony Lapinski)
6. Re: Sequence (Anthony Lapinski)
7. Re: Sequence (Paul Lulai)
8. Re: Sequence (Philip Keller)
9. Re: Sequence (Larry Smith)
10. Re: Sequence (Paul Lulai)
11. Re: Sequence (Rauber, Joel)
12. Re: Sequence (Philip Keller)
13. Re: Sequence (Robert Cohen)
14. Re: Sequence (June Nicholas)
15. Re: multiple inconsistent notions (was: sequence) (John Denker)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 13:35:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: "thomaspfeiffer2002@yahoo.com" <thomaspfeiffer2002@yahoo.com>
To: "Phys-L@Phys-L.org" <Phys-L@Phys-L.org>
Subject: Re: [Phys-L] Sequence
Message-ID:
<1395261311.13800.YahooMailAndroidMobile@web142302.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Kinda sounds like should I floss first and then brush or vice versa.



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 22:29:22 +0000
From: Robert Cohen <Robert.Cohen@po-box.esu.edu>
To: "Phys-L@Phys-L.org" <Phys-L@Phys-L.org>
Subject: Re: [Phys-L] Sequence
Message-ID:
<F5DEDBE631819941B8D4DCD1B5C645AF0E5D69@msxmb2.admin.esu.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I've gone back and forth in the past and have now settled on forces first.

In particular, I first examine he difference between forces as interactions between objects and the "effect" of those interactions (in terms of changes in motion). Getting students to recognize the difference is important. I start with Newton's 3rd law.

I don't need to go into detail regarding displacement, velocity and acceleration. Indeed, I don't introduce the definition of acceleration at all until after I have finished with displacement and 2-D motion.

The main reason I do this is because my students have trouble with ratios, so starting with rates of change and graphs just overwhelms them. Starting with forces first focuses attention on a single main idea (in this case, that changes in motion are associated with unbalanced forces).

I use my own book for this, which helps.

------------------------------------------------------
Robert A. Cohen, Department of Physics, East Stroudsburg University
East Stroudsburg, PA 18301
________________________________________
From: Phys-l [phys-l-bounces@phys-l.org] on behalf of Bill Nettles [bnettles@uu.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 6:31 PM
To: Phys-L@Phys-L.org
Subject: Re: [Phys-L] Sequence

I hope this is AFTER you teach them to do unit conversions well.

I like teaching vector algebra first. Even in two dimensions. Of course, in 9th grade you haven't taught trig to them, have you? If you do kinematics without talking about vectors I believe they are going to develop some bad concepts.

Forces are a good way to introduce vectors early.

I'm trying Jeffrey Schnick's approach this year (editing and converting to LaTeX as I go), and I like it. You have to introduce some quantities by fiat: K=1/2 m v^2, U_g=mgy, etc. but you can do some applicable calculations. But kinematics without vector concepts...yech.

-----Original Message-----
From: Phys-l [mailto:phys-l-bounces@phys-l.org] On Behalf Of James Cibulka
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 3:00 PM
To: phys-l@phys-l.org
Subject: [Phys-L] Sequence

Good day all!

Several teachers at my school have decided they want to teach forces first in
our ninth grade physics course.
I currently teach constant velocity, balanced forces, constant acceleration,
constant net force, energy and finally mechanical waves. One teacher does
motion then forces, and another does forces first, then motion.

We are being told to show up with our arguments why we should follow a
certain sequence. All the headache of college teaching with none of the joy
it seems!
Anyone here have an opinion on sequence? I'd love to hear from you!

Jim Cibulka
Kirkwood high school
_______________________________________________
Forum for Physics Educators
Phys-l@phys-l.org
http://www.phys-l.org/mailman/listinfo/phys-l
_______________________________________________
Forum for Physics Educators
Phys-l@phys-l.org
http://www.phys-l.org/mailman/listinfo/phys-l

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 19:53:33 -0400
From: Philip Keller <pkeller@holmdelschools.org>
To: "Phys-L@phys-l.org" <Phys-L@phys-l.org>
Subject: Re: [Phys-L] Sequence
Message-ID:
<CAMEjEfNDZnD2Mqa9WdpWFobeC-B2vWFUDH5-cAM39Tzf0vGKXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Just thinking at loud here...

What if you start by defining constant velocity and showing what its
position and velocity graphs look like. Then define constant, non-zero,
positive acceleration and show what its position and velocity graphs look
like. At this point, you have invested maybe 3 class periods if you go
slow.

Then move on to forces, momentum, energy, circular motion, gravitation,
whatever you like, returning to kinematics as later, say before you teach
projectile motion but after you teach vectors.

This way, you would have the vocabulary of kinematics in place but not the
equations. You would get to say things like: when no unbalanced forces act
on an object, its velocity graph looks like this,or like this but never
like that.

It feels to me that you could teach a lot of physics before you needed any
further kinematics treatment.


On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:29 PM, Robert Cohen
<Robert.Cohen@po-box.esu.edu>wrote:

I've gone back and forth in the past and have now settled on forces first.

In particular, I first examine he difference between forces as
interactions between objects and the "effect" of those interactions (in
terms of changes in motion). Getting students to recognize the difference
is important. I start with Newton's 3rd law.

I don't need to go into detail regarding displacement, velocity and
acceleration. Indeed, I don't introduce the definition of acceleration at
all until after I have finished with displacement and 2-D motion.

The main reason I do this is because my students have trouble with ratios,
so starting with rates of change and graphs just overwhelms them. Starting
with forces first focuses attention on a single main idea (in this case,
that changes in motion are associated with unbalanced forces).

I use my own book for this, which helps.

------------------------------------------------------
Robert A. Cohen, Department of Physics, East Stroudsburg University
East Stroudsburg, PA 18301
________________________________________
From: Phys-l [phys-l-bounces@phys-l.org] on behalf of Bill Nettles [
bnettles@uu.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 6:31 PM
To: Phys-L@Phys-L.org
Subject: Re: [Phys-L] Sequence

I hope this is AFTER you teach them to do unit conversions well.

I like teaching vector algebra first. Even in two dimensions. Of course,
in 9th grade you haven't taught trig to them, have you? If you do
kinematics without talking about vectors I believe they are going to
develop some bad concepts.

Forces are a good way to introduce vectors early.

I'm trying Jeffrey Schnick's approach this year (editing and converting to
LaTeX as I go), and I like it. You have to introduce some quantities by
fiat: K=1/2 m v^2, U_g=mgy, etc. but you can do some applicable
calculations. But kinematics without vector concepts...yech.

-----Original Message-----
From: Phys-l [mailto:phys-l-bounces@phys-l.org] On Behalf Of James
Cibulka
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 3:00 PM
To: phys-l@phys-l.org
Subject: [Phys-L] Sequence

Good day all!

Several teachers at my school have decided they want to teach forces
first in
our ninth grade physics course.
I currently teach constant velocity, balanced forces, constant
acceleration,
constant net force, energy and finally mechanical waves. One teacher does
motion then forces, and another does forces first, then motion.

We are being told to show up with our arguments why we should follow a
certain sequence. All the headache of college teaching with none of the
joy
it seems!
Anyone here have an opinion on sequence? I'd love to hear from you!

Jim Cibulka
Kirkwood high school
_______________________________________________
Forum for Physics Educators
Phys-l@phys-l.org
http://www.phys-l.org/mailman/listinfo/phys-l
_______________________________________________
Forum for Physics Educators
Phys-l@phys-l.org
http://www.phys-l.org/mailman/listinfo/phys-l
_______________________________________________
Forum for Physics Educators
Phys-l@phys-l.org
http://www.phys-l.org/mailman/listinfo/phys-l


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 20:22:04 -0400
From: Marty Weiss <martweiss@comcast.net>
To: Phys-L@Phys-L.org
Subject: Re: [Phys-L] Sequence
Message-ID: <4D977C33-7758-4C9C-A67D-4A70E30D6AB1@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

3 class periods? really? usually takes weeks to get those points across.
all those other concepts in a short period of time? months here!

On Mar 19, 2014, at 7:53 PM, Philip Keller wrote:

Just thinking at loud here...

What if you start by defining constant velocity and showing what its
position and velocity graphs look like. Then define constant, non-zero,
positive acceleration and show what its position and velocity graphs look
like. At this point, you have invested maybe 3 class periods if you go
slow.

Then move on to forces, momentum, energy, circular motion, gravitation,
whatever you like, returning to kinematics as later, say before you teach
projectile motion but after you teach vectors.

This way, you would have the vocabulary of kinematics in place but not the
equations. You would get to say things like: when no unbalanced forces act
on an object, its velocity graph looks like this,or like this but never
like that.

It feels to me that you could teach a lot of physics before you needed any
further kinematics treatment.



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 20:27:17 -0400
From: "Anthony Lapinski" <Anthony_Lapinski@pds.org>
To: Phys-L@Phys-L.org
Subject: Re: [Phys-L] [SPAM] Re: Sequence
Message-ID: <fc.000f547409ed817b3b9aca00839e1829.9ed8188@pds.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Not quite the same analogy. Sequencing in physics really matters as
concepts are challenging and counterintuitive.

Regarding teeth, flossing first is better as it loosens/removes food
particles before the teeth get brushed/cleaned. Ask your dentist!


Phys-L@Phys-L.org writes:
Kinda sounds like should I floss first and then brush or vice versa.

_______________________________________________
Forum for Physics Educators
Phys-l@phys-l.org
http://www.phys-l.org/mailman/listinfo/phys-l




------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 20:36:46 -0400
From: "Anthony Lapinski" <Anthony_Lapinski@pds.org>
To: Phys-L@Phys-L.org
Subject: Re: [Phys-L] Sequence
Message-ID: <fc.000f547409ed81a33b9aca001f57a2c6.9ed81a5@pds.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

I agree, physics concepts take time to learn. But it depends on how you
teach/test. Just math? Or concepts (multiple-choice) too? Makes a big
difference. Also depends on how smart your students are, the pace of the
class, how many topics you teach, etc.

Phys-L@Phys-L.org writes:
3 class periods? really? usually takes weeks to get those points
across.
all those other concepts in a short period of time? months here!

On Mar 19, 2014, at 7:53 PM, Philip Keller wrote:

Just thinking at loud here...

What if you start by defining constant velocity and showing what its
position and velocity graphs look like. Then define constant, non-zero,
positive acceleration and show what its position and velocity graphs
look
like. At this point, you have invested maybe 3 class periods if you go
slow.

Then move on to forces, momentum, energy, circular motion, gravitation,
whatever you like, returning to kinematics as later, say before you
teach
projectile motion but after you teach vectors.

This way, you would have the vocabulary of kinematics in place but not
the
equations. You would get to say things like: when no unbalanced forces
act
on an object, its velocity graph looks like this,or like this but never
like that.

It feels to me that you could teach a lot of physics before you needed
any
further kinematics treatment.

_______________________________________________
Forum for Physics Educators
Phys-l@phys-l.org
http://www.phys-l.org/mailman/listinfo/phys-l




------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 01:02:02 +0000
From: Paul Lulai <plulai@stanthony.k12.mn.us>
To: "Phys-L@Phys-L.org" <Phys-L@Phys-L.org>
Subject: Re: