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Re: [Phys-L] Would a Carbon Tax Save Life on Planet Earth?



Here is a reference to a paper that calculates the 'externalities' of various types of primary energy resources used to generate electricity (mostly generated by fossil fuels in the US). A calculation of externalities for various renewable sources is included.

Roth and Ambs "Incorporating externalities in a full cost analysis approach to electric power generation life cycle costs" , Energy 29 (12-15) oct. - dec 2004

It seems to me that any claims that externalities are already accounted for or that carbon taxes or cap and trade is (or is not) the best way to handle externalities has to start with an evaluation of what those externalities are. This paper does that.

Kyle

--------------
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts."
--- Mark Twain

On Jun 4, 2013, at 11:00 AM, <phys-l-request@phys-l.org> wrote:

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Today's Topics:

1. Would a Carbon Tax Save Life on Planet Earth? (Richard Hake)
2. Re: Would a Carbon Tax Save Life on Planet Earth?
(marx@phy.ilstu.edu)
3. Re: Would a Carbon Tax Save Life on Planet Earth?
(LaMontagne, Bob)
4. Re: Would a Carbon Tax Save Life on Planet Earth?
(marx@phy.ilstu.edu)
5. Re: Would a Carbon Tax Save Life on Planet Earth?
(John Mallinckrodt)
6. Re: Would a Carbon Tax Save Life on Planet Earth? (Bruce Sherwood)
7. Re: Would a Carbon Tax Save Life on Planet Earth? (Richard Tarara)
8. Re: Would a Carbon Tax Save Life on Planet Earth? (Bruce Sherwood)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2013 15:52:06 -0700
From: Richard Hake <rrhake@earthlink.net>
To: <phys-l@mail.phys-l.org>
Subject: [Phys-L] Would a Carbon Tax Save Life on Planet Earth?
Message-ID: <a06240810cdd2c3ab3006@[192.168.1.103]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

Some subscribers to Phys-L might be interested in a recent post
"Would a Carbon Tax Save Life on Planet Earth?" [Hake (2013)]. The
abstract reads:

**************************************
ABSTRACT: James Hansen, former head of the NASA Goddard Institute for
Space Studies, in "The Courage to Fight Climate Change" at
<http://bit.ly/12djtSf> wrote: "We must have a simple, honest,
across-the-board carbon fee collected from the fossil fuel companies
at the small number of domestic mines and ports of entry. All of that
money should be distributed to the public-100 percent of it-with
equal amounts going to all legal residents."

A Google <http://www.google.com/> search for "Carbon Tax" turned up
4,210,000 hits at <http://bit.ly/153PQQV> on 03 June 10:30-0700,
including the Wikipedi entries on "Carbon Tax" at
<http://bit.ly/118dUBp> and on "Emissions Control" at
<http://bit.ly/15tshjV>. In my opinion: (a) The *more* important hits
are listed in the over twenty references in the REFERENCE list in the
complete post at <http://yhoo.it/16ECfUn>, and (b) the *most*
important hits are these six:

(1) "The Courage to Fight Climate Change" [Hansen & Romm (2013)] at
<http://bit.ly/12djtSf>,

(2) "The People vs. Cap-and-Trade" [Hansen (2010b)] at <http://bit.ly/17OhN3w>,

(3) "The American Party" [Hansen (2013)] at <http://huff.to/13gcjcR>,

(4) "Herman Daly on Carbon Fees and Tax Shifting" [Gravitas (2011)]
at <http://bit.ly/1aTHNH3>,

(5) "Sanders, Boxer Propose Climate Change Bills" [Sanders (2013a)]
at <http://1.usa.gov/12oSeUT>,

(6) "Effects of a Carbon Tax on the Economy and the Environment" [CBO
(2013)] at <http://1.usa.gov/13y4MF6>.

**************************************

To access the complete 32 kB post please click on <http://yhoo.it/16ECfUn>.

Richard Hake, Emeritus Professor of Physics, Indiana University
Links to Articles: <http://bit.ly/a6M5y0>
Links to Socratic Dialogue Inducing (SDI) Labs: <http://bit.ly/9nGd3M>
Academia: <http://bit.ly/a8ixxm>
Blog: <http://bit.ly/9yGsXh>
GooglePlus: <http://bit.ly/KwZ6mE>
Google Scholar: <http://bit.ly/Wz2FP3>
Twitter: <http://bit.ly/juvd52>
Facebook: <http://on.fb.me/XI7EKm>

REFERENCES [URL's shortened by <http://bit.ly/> and accessed on 03 June 2013.]
Hake, R.R. 2013. "Would a Carbon Tax Save Life on Planet Earth?"
online on the OPEN! Net-Gold archives at <http://yhoo.it/16ECfUn>.
Post of 03 Jun 2013 12:34:27-0700 to AERA-L and Net-Gold. The
abstract and link to the complete post are being distributed to
various discussion lists and are also on my blog "Hake'sEdStuff" at
<http://bit.ly/15zIncu>.


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2013 19:14:31 -0500
From: marx@phy.ilstu.edu
To: Phys-L@Phys-L.org
Subject: Re: [Phys-L] Would a Carbon Tax Save Life on Planet Earth?
Message-ID:
<2e70b76d7b67f599829441c1f5926e64.squirrel@www.phy.ilstu.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1

Now, we finally get to the real purpose of carbon caps and taxes... it's
all about wealth redistribution, whether it be to third world nations or
for so-called "social justice."

Of course, these fees would be passed on to customers at the gas pumps and
their other energy purchases. This makes everything more expensive for
everyone - rich or poor - and further damages the economy. A poor economy
hurts the poor and middle class the most - regardless of the wealth
redistribution.

Profit margins for oil companies are between 3 and 9 %, which is perfectly
acceptable. Profit margins for software and pharmaceutical companies are
typically the highest among all industries.



On 3 Jun 2013 at 15:52, Richard Hake wrote:

Some subscribers to Phys-L might be interested in a recent post
"Would a Carbon Tax Save Life on Planet Earth?" [Hake (2013)]. The
abstract reads:

**************************************
ABSTRACT: James Hansen, former head of the NASA Goddard Institute for
Space Studies, in "The Courage to Fight Climate Change" at
<http://bit.ly/12djtSf> wrote: "We must have a simple, honest,
across-the-board carbon fee collected from the fossil fuel companies
at the small number of domestic mines and ports of entry. All of that
money should be distributed to the public-100 percent of it-with
equal amounts going to all legal residents."

A Google <http://www.google.com/> search for "Carbon Tax" turned up
4,210,000 hits at <http://bit.ly/153PQQV> on 03 June 10:30-0700,
including the Wikipedi entries on "Carbon Tax" at
<http://bit.ly/118dUBp> and on "Emissions Control" at
<http://bit.ly/15tshjV>. In my opinion: (a) The *more* important hits
are listed in the over twenty references in the REFERENCE list in the
complete post at <http://yhoo.it/16ECfUn>, and (b) the *most*
important hits are these six:

(1) "The Courage to Fight Climate Change" [Hansen & Romm (2013)] at
<http://bit.ly/12djtSf>,

(2) "The People vs. Cap-and-Trade" [Hansen (2010b)] at
<http://bit.ly/17OhN3w>,

(3) "The American Party" [Hansen (2013)] at <http://huff.to/13gcjcR>,

(4) "Herman Daly on Carbon Fees and Tax Shifting" [Gravitas (2011)]
at <http://bit.ly/1aTHNH3>,

(5) "Sanders, Boxer Propose Climate Change Bills" [Sanders (2013a)]
at <http://1.usa.gov/12oSeUT>,

(6) "Effects of a Carbon Tax on the Economy and the Environment" [CBO
(2013)] at <http://1.usa.gov/13y4MF6>.

**************************************

To access the complete 32 kB post please click on <http://yhoo.it/16ECfUn>.

Richard Hake, Emeritus Professor of Physics, Indiana University
Links to Articles: <http://bit.ly/a6M5y0>
Links to Socratic Dialogue Inducing (SDI) Labs: <http://bit.ly/9nGd3M>
Academia: <http://bit.ly/a8ixxm>
Blog: <http://bit.ly/9yGsXh>
GooglePlus: <http://bit.ly/KwZ6mE>
Google Scholar: <http://bit.ly/Wz2FP3>
Twitter: <http://bit.ly/juvd52>
Facebook: <http://on.fb.me/XI7EKm>

REFERENCES [URL's shortened by <http://bit.ly/> and accessed on 03 June
2013.]
Hake, R.R. 2013. "Would a Carbon Tax Save Life on Planet Earth?"
online on the OPEN! Net-Gold archives at <http://yhoo.it/16ECfUn>.
Post of 03 Jun 2013 12:34:27-0700 to AERA-L and Net-Gold. The
abstract and link to the complete post are being distributed to
various discussion lists and are also on my blog "Hake'sEdStuff" at
<http://bit.ly/15zIncu>.
_______________________________________________
Forum for Physics Educators
Phys-l@phys-l.org
http://www.phys-l.org/mailman/listinfo/phys-l




------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 03:49:21 +0000
From: "LaMontagne, Bob" <RLAMONT@providence.edu>
To: "Phys-L@Phys-L.org" <Phys-L@Phys-L.org>
Subject: Re: [Phys-L] Would a Carbon Tax Save Life on Planet Earth?
Message-ID:
<9DD8E6B7DA56BD4CA13E0C068DA57218F7E3E2C9@DAG01.providence.col>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Can't wait to read the responses to your posting.

I agree with everything you have stated. In addition, people have to remember that whenever the government "redistributes", a huge portion ends up being soaked up by administrative costs - and often by pure waste. I would bet that almost all of the carbon taxes will end up simply growing government.

Bob
________________________________________
From: Phys-l [phys-l-bounces@phys-l.org] on behalf of marx@phy.ilstu.edu [marx@phy.ilstu.edu]
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2013 8:14 PM
To: Phys-L@Phys-L.org
Subject: Re: [Phys-L] Would a Carbon Tax Save Life on Planet Earth?

Now, we finally get to the real purpose of carbon caps and taxes... it's
all about wealth redistribution, whether it be to third world nations or
for so-called "social justice."

Of course, these fees would be passed on to customers at the gas pumps and
their other energy purchases. This makes everything more expensive for
everyone - rich or poor - and further damages the economy. A poor economy
hurts the poor and middle class the most - regardless of the wealth
redistribution.

Profit margins for oil companies are between 3 and 9 %, which is perfectly
acceptable. Profit margins for software and pharmaceutical companies are
typically the highest among all industries.



On 3 Jun 2013 at 15:52, Richard Hake wrote:

Some subscribers to Phys-L might be interested in a recent post
"Would a Carbon Tax Save Life on Planet Earth?" [Hake (2013)]. The
abstract reads:

**************************************
ABSTRACT: James Hansen, former head of the NASA Goddard Institute for
Space Studies, in "The Courage to Fight Climate Change" at
<http://bit.ly/12djtSf> wrote: "We must have a simple, honest,
across-the-board carbon fee collected from the fossil fuel companies
at the small number of domestic mines and ports of entry. All of that
money should be distributed to the public-100 percent of it-with
equal amounts going to all legal residents."

A Google <http://www.google.com/> search for "Carbon Tax" turned up
4,210,000 hits at <http://bit.ly/153PQQV> on 03 June 10:30-0700,
including the Wikipedi entries on "Carbon Tax" at
<http://bit.ly/118dUBp> and on "Emissions Control" at
<http://bit.ly/15tshjV>. In my opinion: (a) The *more* important hits
are listed in the over twenty references in the REFERENCE list in the
complete post at <http://yhoo.it/16ECfUn>, and (b) the *most*
important hits are these six:

(1) "The Courage to Fight Climate Change" [Hansen & Romm (2013)] at
<http://bit.ly/12djtSf>,

(2) "The People vs. Cap-and-Trade" [Hansen (2010b)] at
<http://bit.ly/17OhN3w>,

(3) "The American Party" [Hansen (2013)] at <http://huff.to/13gcjcR>,

(4) "Herman Daly on Carbon Fees and Tax Shifting" [Gravitas (2011)]
at <http://bit.ly/1aTHNH3>,

(5) "Sanders, Boxer Propose Climate Change Bills" [Sanders (2013a)]
at <http://1.usa.gov/12oSeUT>,

(6) "Effects of a Carbon Tax on the Economy and the Environment" [CBO
(2013)] at <http://1.usa.gov/13y4MF6>.

**************************************

To access the complete 32 kB post please click on <http://yhoo.it/16ECfUn>.

Richard Hake, Emeritus Professor of Physics, Indiana University
Links to Articles: <http://bit.ly/a6M5y0>
Links to Socratic Dialogue Inducing (SDI) Labs: <http://bit.ly/9nGd3M>
Academia: <http://bit.ly/a8ixxm>
Blog: <http://bit.ly/9yGsXh>
GooglePlus: <http://bit.ly/KwZ6mE>
Google Scholar: <http://bit.ly/Wz2FP3>
Twitter: <http://bit.ly/juvd52>
Facebook: <http://on.fb.me/XI7EKm>

REFERENCES [URL's shortened by <http://bit.ly/> and accessed on 03 June
2013.]
Hake, R.R. 2013. "Would a Carbon Tax Save Life on Planet Earth?"
online on the OPEN! Net-Gold archives at <http://yhoo.it/16ECfUn>.
Post of 03 Jun 2013 12:34:27-0700 to AERA-L and Net-Gold. The
abstract and link to the complete post are being distributed to
various discussion lists and are also on my blog "Hake'sEdStuff" at
<http://bit.ly/15zIncu>.
_______________________________________________
Forum for Physics Educators
Phys-l@phys-l.org
http://www.phys-l.org/mailman/listinfo/phys-l


_______________________________________________
Forum for Physics Educators
Phys-l@phys-l.org
http://www.phys-l.org/mailman/listinfo/phys-l


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2013 23:06:42 -0500
From: marx@phy.ilstu.edu
To: Phys-L@Phys-L.org
Subject: Re: [Phys-L] Would a Carbon Tax Save Life on Planet Earth?
Message-ID:
<4f30a649dae1b50256a6c16e771aa964.squirrel@www.phy.ilstu.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1



Can't wait to read the responses to your posting.

I agree with everything you have stated. In addition, people have to
remember that whenever the government "redistributes", a huge portion ends
up being soaked up by administrative costs - and often by pure waste. I
would bet that almost all of the carbon taxes will end up simply growing
government.

Bob

...and directly benefiting Obama's donors and friends.

I am surprised that no one on the list has responded yet.



________________________________________
From: Phys-l [phys-l-bounces@phys-l.org] on behalf of marx@phy.ilstu.edu
[marx@phy.ilstu.edu]
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2013 8:14 PM
To: Phys-L@Phys-L.org
Subject: Re: [Phys-L] Would a Carbon Tax Save Life on Planet Earth?

Now, we finally get to the real purpose of carbon caps and taxes... it's
all about wealth redistribution, whether it be to third world nations or
for so-called "social justice."

Of course, these fees would be passed on to customers at the gas pumps and
their other energy purchases. This makes everything more expensive for
everyone - rich or poor - and further damages the economy. A poor economy
hurts the poor and middle class the most - regardless of the wealth
redistribution.

Profit margins for oil companies are between 3 and 9 %, which is perfectly
acceptable. Profit margins for software and pharmaceutical companies are
typically the highest among all industries.



On 3 Jun 2013 at 15:52, Richard Hake wrote:

Some subscribers to Phys-L might be interested in a recent post
"Would a Carbon Tax Save Life on Planet Earth?" [Hake (2013)]. The
abstract reads:

**************************************
ABSTRACT: James Hansen, former head of the NASA Goddard Institute for
Space Studies, in "The Courage to Fight Climate Change" at
<http://bit.ly/12djtSf> wrote: "We must have a simple, honest,
across-the-board carbon fee collected from the fossil fuel companies
at the small number of domestic mines and ports of entry. All of that
money should be distributed to the public-100 percent of it-with
equal amounts going to all legal residents."

A Google <http://www.google.com/> search for "Carbon Tax" turned up
4,210,000 hits at <http://bit.ly/153PQQV> on 03 June 10:30-0700,
including the Wikipedi entries on "Carbon Tax" at
<http://bit.ly/118dUBp> and on "Emissions Control" at
<http://bit.ly/15tshjV>. In my opinion: (a) The *more* important hits
are listed in the over twenty references in the REFERENCE list in the
complete post at <http://yhoo.it/16ECfUn>, and (b) the *most*
important hits are these six:

(1) "The Courage to Fight Climate Change" [Hansen & Romm (2013)] at
<http://bit.ly/12djtSf>,

(2) "The People vs. Cap-and-Trade" [Hansen (2010b)] at
<http://bit.ly/17OhN3w>,

(3) "The American Party" [Hansen (2013)] at <http://huff.to/13gcjcR>,

(4) "Herman Daly on Carbon Fees and Tax Shifting" [Gravitas (2011)]
at <http://bit.ly/1aTHNH3>,

(5) "Sanders, Boxer Propose Climate Change Bills" [Sanders (2013a)]
at <http://1.usa.gov/12oSeUT>,

(6) "Effects of a Carbon Tax on the Economy and the Environment" [CBO
(2013)] at <http://1.usa.gov/13y4MF6>.

**************************************

To access the complete 32 kB post please click on
<http://yhoo.it/16ECfUn>.

Richard Hake, Emeritus Professor of Physics, Indiana University
Links to Articles: <http://bit.ly/a6M5y0>
Links to Socratic Dialogue Inducing (SDI) Labs: <http://bit.ly/9nGd3M>
Academia: <http://bit.ly/a8ixxm>
Blog: <http://bit.ly/9yGsXh>
GooglePlus: <http://bit.ly/KwZ6mE>
Google Scholar: <http://bit.ly/Wz2FP3>
Twitter: <http://bit.ly/juvd52>
Facebook: <http://on.fb.me/XI7EKm>

REFERENCES [URL's shortened by <http://bit.ly/> and accessed on 03 June
2013.]
Hake, R.R. 2013. "Would a Carbon Tax Save Life on Planet Earth?"
online on the OPEN! Net-Gold archives at <http://yhoo.it/16ECfUn>.
Post of 03 Jun 2013 12:34:27-0700 to AERA-L and Net-Gold. The
abstract and link to the complete post are being distributed to
various discussion lists and are also on my blog "Hake'sEdStuff" at
<http://bit.ly/15zIncu>.
_______________________________________________
Forum for Physics Educators
Phys-l@phys-l.org
http://www.phys-l.org/mailman/listinfo/phys-l


_______________________________________________
Forum for Physics Educators
Phys-l@phys-l.org
http://www.phys-l.org/mailman/listinfo/phys-l
_______________________________________________
Forum for Physics Educators
Phys-l@phys-l.org
http://www.phys-l.org/mailman/listinfo/phys-l




------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2013 21:18:36 -0700
From: John Mallinckrodt <ajm@csupomona.edu>
To: "Phys-L@Phys-L.org" <Phys-L@Phys-L.org>
Subject: Re: [Phys-L] Would a Carbon Tax Save Life on Planet Earth?
Message-ID: <18972DAC-B505-4E3C-81E9-547AC8481031@csupomona.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I suspect some of us fear that if we DO respond, we'll be accused of rudely injecting unwelcome politics into the discussion.

John Mallinckrodt
Cal