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Re: [Phys-l] Lecture Isn't Effective: More Evidence #2

Again this is not evidence that it is the lectures that are effective.
Overall effectiveness depends on a lot of factors. It may be that the the
Chinese students are studying more, and that if there were much shortened
lectures that they would still get the same scores.

The fact that Yang has shared that some Chinese schools acieve to close to
100% five may be evidence that the best and brightest went to those schools
and that they studied hard and effectively.

Shayer & Adey showed with their testing that all schools in the UK were
doing the same thing. They did this by plotting the output vs input scores
on national exams. Then they implemented their program and the schools that
followed it fell distinctly above the line. Indeed in some cases schools
that were well below average ended up above average to superior after their
program. Their program is very similar to the IE programs in PER (Physics
education research, not premature ejaculation research). See "Really
Raising Standards" by these authors. They did not use the same tests that
PER researchers use, and their gain was across the board for science, math,
and English.

It is easy to cite higher scores in particular schools, but being able to
say that the lectures were responsible requires careful testing and
evaluation.

The fact that Yang is randy and that he shared the Nobel with Lee is not any
evidence for his understanding of how education works. This is an appeal to
celebrity and masculine chauvinism (advertising). If he had read the
education and PER research and had then published some good studies, I might
be more inclined to take his comments seriously. A Nobel in physics does
not confer expertise in other subjects. Celebrity endorsements are not
evidence.

For goodness sakes I questioned the observation and conclusion because there
was no way of actually drawing that conclusion. Presenting more evidence of
the Chinese superiority in education also does not validate that conclusion.
Actually according to some reports that I have heard, the overall Chinese
educational system is not that good. Every country has bright spots in
their educational system. Medical research does not admit studies based on
purely anecdotal evidence. They do admit case studies, but there all
factors are examined and these studies must eventually be evaluated using
strict studies. Case studies can be used to guide what you might examine in
a strict study. An informal evaluation of a school is neither. And don't
forget that visitors may be excluded from poor performing schools. China
still tries to control the thoughts and everyday actions of its people, and
of visitors.

Maybe their students who come to the US are superior, but I would like to
see a careful analysis of that and whether they came here because of their
superiority. It may be that superior American students go to Europe to
study so some teachers there might think we are superior. Maybe their
lecture system works because of their attitudes, but there have been no
studies to show that it works better than IE. Indeed there have been no
studies that show that our conventional lecture system works better than IE
(interactive engagemet). So why not do one and publish it? If you can't do
one that shows this, then it is just more evidence that IE works better.

John M. Clement
Houston, TX



-----Original Message-----
From: phys-l-bounces@carnot.physics.buffalo.edu
[mailto:phys-l-bounces@carnot.physics.buffalo.edu] On Behalf
Of carmelo@pacific.net.sg
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 2:18 AM
To: phys-l@carnot.physics.buffalo.edu
Subject: Re: [Phys-l] Lecture Isn't Effective: More Evidence #2

Motivation can be a very important factor in learning.

The fact is some chinese schools have achieve 100%, or close
to 100%,
5 in AP Physics. (Students who achieved 4 for AP Physics may feel
embarrassed within these schools.)

During an interview with Dr Chen Ning Yang, he shared that
chinese may
achieve excellent results in Physics GRE, but they may not be
innovative. (In 2004, Dr CN Yang was 82-year-old and he married Weng
Fan, 28-year-old. He won Nobel Prize for his work on parity
violation.)


Best regards,
Alphonsus

Quoting Joseph Bellina <inquirybellina@comcast.net>:

Are you suggesting that there are different culturally
based mental
properties, that different their minds function differently?


Joseph J. Bellina, Jr. Ph.D.
Retired Professor of Physics
Co-Director
Northern Indiana Science, Mathematics, and Engineering Collaborative
574-276-8294
inquirybellina@comcast.net




On Aug 4, 2011, at 10:11 PM, carmelo@pacific.net.sg wrote:


Chinese students can be more engaged in lectures and learned well
because they believe that education can bring them out of poverty.

Lecture isn't effective for american students based on
some research
studies, does not imply that lecture is equally ineffective for
students worldwide. Extrapolation can be a dangerous thing. (Of
course, lecture has its limitation.)


Best regards,
Alphonsus

Quoting John Clement <clement@hal-pc.org>:

But how does she know that they were really engaged and
learned well? Just
observing a lecture does not tell you what is going on in
the minds of the
students. This is one of the problems with what people
believe. You have
to pre and posttest to see what has actually happened and
not rely on what
you see. Chinese students are certainly more polite and
out of respect
would try to appear attentive, but this does not show
what processing was
actually going on. They will appear attentive even when
no significant
processing is going on. American students will let you
know if they are
bored.


John M. Clement
Houston, TX



A friend of mine visited a school in China and she was very
impressed
how the students were fully engaged during lectures.
She tried to use the same lesson for her students, but it did
not work.



_______________________________________________
Forum for Physics Educators
Phys-l@carnot.physics.buffalo.edu
https://carnot.physics.buffalo.edu/mailman/listinfo/phys-l




_______________________________________________
Forum for Physics Educators
Phys-l@carnot.physics.buffalo.edu
https://carnot.physics.buffalo.edu/mailman/listinfo/phys-l

_______________________________________________
Forum for Physics Educators
Phys-l@carnot.physics.buffalo.edu
https://carnot.physics.buffalo.edu/mailman/listinfo/phys-l




_______________________________________________
Forum for Physics Educators
Phys-l@carnot.physics.buffalo.edu
https://carnot.physics.buffalo.edu/mailman/listinfo/phys-l