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Re: Math and Physics Teacher partnership?

Hi all-
Well, Daryl's posting is sufficiently conclusive that I feel
compelled to respond. Daryl sez:
If an Honors Physics 11th grade
student walks into my classroom and can't handle the Algebra II or Trig I
that is required to do the basic vector analysis at the beginning of the
course, sorry. See you later.
Well, that's great for you, at your institution. But for Hoi
Polloi, such as I was at College of DuPage, Illinois, that's a great way
to stimulate the Dean's desire to have you go elsewhere.
Similarly, when Daryl sez:
As Physics teachers/professors, our job is simply to teach physics. It
would be nice if we had the time and resources to teach everything, but
ain't happnin'. I see very little argument there. If an Honors Physics
11th grade student walks into my classroom and can't handle the Algebra
II or
Trig I
that is required to do the basic vector analysis at the beginning of the
course, sorry. See you later. By the same token, if an AP 12th grader
walks
in and can't handle the basic Calculus, sorry. I will always help a kid
who
is deficient in the maths and/or point him/her in the direction of a
good
Math teacher who can help. However, if I take time out of my tight
Physics
schedule to teach something that is a basic needed pre-requisite, I'm
defeating myself and, worse, the kids!
I conclude that he must have been living in a teacher's paradise.
The Dean's I have known expect that you will deal with whatever you get in
the classroom, exactly as your fellow, perhaps not very scrupulous
teachers, have done. Your job is to process students according to
schedule, and not make waves. Many of us have taught in tax-supported
schools where the overpriced administrators are primarily concerned with
getting along with the politicians.
So, Daryl, I'd like to hear more about the Utopia where you work
and how you deal with any conflicts arising from your standards of
excellence.
Regards.
Jack




On Sun, 7 Nov 2004, Daryl L. Taylor wrote:

It's been a long day. It's been a longer week. Please forgive me if I attack
the 'physics first' statement Scott ends with.

This '...I spend 30% of my curriculum time teaching and reteaching
algebra...' is a touchy topic to most physics teachers, let alone the Math
teachers, I've bumped into across the country. When and where do we end
'math' and where and when do we begin 'physics'. My answer is simple. Teach
physics. Not Math. If the kids can't handle the Math needed, it's on them.
PERIOD.

I have degrees in both Physics and Math. (Got Math 1st, by the by... Moved
into Physics because I could finally see where all that Math was going...)
Have taught both Math and Physics. 28 years. So, before the gripes start,
I've been there and done 'that'. Hopefully, the best 'that' that could be
done. At least by me.
As Physics teachers/professors, our job is simply to teach physics. It
would be nice if we had the time and resources to teach everything, but
ain't happnin'. I see very little argument there. If an Honors Physics
11th grade student walks into my classroom and can't handle the Algebra II or
Trig I
that is required to do the basic vector analysis at the beginning of the
course, sorry. See you later. By the same token, if an AP 12th grader walks
in and can't handle the basic Calculus, sorry. I will always help a kid who
is deficient in the maths and/or point him/her in the direction of a good
Math teacher who can help. However, if I take time out of my tight Physics
schedule to teach something that is a basic needed pre-requisite, I'm
defeating myself and, worse, the kids!

Would you take time out of your Physics curriculum to teach a student to
read the text? To use the Internet for assistance? I think not. We all do
that on our OWN time anyway. You would do all these outside of class, but
would NOT take class time away from all the others. Why do it for Math. If
the student isn't prepared for the math necessary for a successful physics
understanding, why hold back others by wasting their time? And, yes, I typed
and meant 'wasting'.

I'm sure this is coming across as callous and/or uncaring. Sigh... In a
perfect world, like Seti Alpha V, ALL students would be totally prepared and
eager to consume our experiences. This is the Planet Earth. They aren't. We
can't. I see this as a 'made-up' dilemma. Too many students who aren't
prepared to learn are suddenly slammed into that 'Physics Wall'. All of a
sudden, it's our fault. I don't buy it.

And as for 'Physics First'? Geez! I need a few more beers before I tackle
that mess again...

Teach Physics.

Daryl L. Taylor, Fizzix Guy
Greenwich HS, CT
PAEMST '96
International Internet Educator of the Year '03
NASA SEU Educator Ambassador
www.DarylScience.com

This email prepared and transmitted using 100% recycled electrons!



-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for Physics Educators [mailto:PHYS-L@list1.ucc.nau.edu]On
Behalf Of Herbert H Gottlieb
Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2004 9:43 PM
To: PHYS-L@LISTS.NAU.EDU
Subject: Math and Physics Teacher partnership?


Scott's idea (below) is EXCELLENT!

However, the problem still remains. Math teachers are
generally unfamiliar with physics and there are not enough
physics teachers available. Are there any "practical"
solutions to the problem???

Herb


On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 13:12:51 -0500 Scott Goelzer <s.goelzer@COMCAST.NET>
writes:
I spend 30% of my curriculum time teaching and reteaching algebra to
juniors and seniors anyway.

Why not subdivide the curriculum and hand over the topics in
physics most suitable for teaching algebra thus
providing more time for physics teachers to cover the topics we
never get to cover - in the depth we only dream of.

Examples of Topics I would like to see covered in math:
kinematics and graphing, scaling, projectiles, vectors (math curr.
is supposed to do this , but either skips it or massacres it),
dimensional analysis, unit analysis, momentum (linear), resistor
networks,
geometric optics, springs and basic SHM...

This would also allow math teachers to take over some labs so that
they can have the hands on activities they have been told they need.

A true and useful version of 'physics first' packaged as
'experiential ?algebra' or 'physical algebra' could result.


Scott



--
"Trust me. I have a lot of experience at this."
General Custer's unremembered message to his men,
just before leading them into the Little Big Horn Valley