Re: Math and Physics Teacher partnership?

[Scott Goelzer <s.goelzer@COMCAST.NET>]

> On Nov 7, 2004, at 8:02 PM, Daryl L. Taylor wrote:
> My answer is simple. Teach
> physics. Not Math. If the kids can't handle the Math needed, it's on
> them.
> PERIOD.


I would like to agree with your high standards, but physics is an
elective at my school ( as with most HS) and I could easily reduce my
teaching load from five classes to 5 students using your philosophy.

I have started physics programs in two schools now and have increased
enrollment fivefold in both. My predecessors  in both schools probably
did a much more rigorous job (more to the standards and practices you
describe), but to only one small section. I teach a lower level of
physics to many more students. I truly think this is better. I even
have one student this year interested in becoming a physics major.
What's interesting is that he is back in school (on probation) after
expulsion. He is now working to catch up and prepare for college. In
your world, he was already written off and to be frank, I would have
been too. I spent my freshmen year of college in remedial math courses
after failing my placement exams. I still hold hard feelings toward my
HS math teachers who passed me with A's and B's.  A total load of 8
courses my freshman first semester almost washed my out of school.
Probably the only reason I made it was the help given by my HS chem
teacher who did make us learn some algebra.

In reality, I have clients not students. No clients; no job - this is
my reality until someone mandates physics in the HS.  When I first
started teaching, I was new and appalled at the level of math skills -
how could I possibly teach physics to someone who is not quite sure
which number goes into a calculator first when dividing. One of my
mentors was kind enough to explain that I was to teach who came to
class, not who should be in my class. I am lucky to cover most of
mechanics plus a little EM in any given year, but I am the last chance
many of these students will have to solidify their math skill before
college.  Better to actually move a kid's education forward than to put
a gold star on a well completed physics course syllabus.

As simple as it would be to slam the door on those enter without the
right skills, I cannot. So I am striving to find ways to improve the
students I have, not the ones I should have. One of my ideas is to put
some practical meaning into a math class. I believe physics might be a
good place to starting looking for this meaning.

Scott




*******************************************
Scott Goelzer
Physics Teacher
Coe-Brown Northwood Academy
Northwood NH 03261
s.goelzer@comcast.net
*******************************************

On Nov 7, 2004, at 8:02 PM, Daryl L. Taylor wrote:

> It's been a long day. It's been a longer week. Please forgive me if I
> attack
> the 'physics first' statement Scott ends with.
>
> This '...I spend 30% of my curriculum time teaching and reteaching
> algebra...' is a touchy topic to most physics teachers, let alone the
> Math
> teachers, I've bumped into across the country. When and where do we end
> 'math' and where and when do we begin 'physics'.
> I have degrees in both Physics and Math. (Got Math 1st, by the by...
> Moved
> into Physics because I could finally see where all that Math was
> going...)
> Have taught both Math and Physics. 28 years. So, before the gripes
> start,
> I've been there and done 'that'. Hopefully, the best 'that' that could
> be
> done. At least by me.
>
> As Physics teachers/professors, our job is simply to teach physics. It
> would
> be nice if we had the time and resources to teach everything, but ain't
> happnin'. I see very little argument there. If an Honors Physics 11th
> grade
> student walks into my classroom and can't handle the Algebra II or
> Trig I
> that is required to do the basic vector analysis at the beginning of
> the
> course, sorry. See you later. By the same token, if an AP 12th grader
> walks
> in and can't handle the basic Calculus, sorry. I will always help a
> kid who
> is deficient in the maths and/or point him/her in the direction of a
> good
> Math teacher who can help. However, if I take time out of my tight
> Physics
> schedule to teach something that is a basic needed pre-requisite, I'm
> defeating myself and, worse, the kids!
>
> Would you take time out of your Physics curriculum to teach a student
> to
> read the text? To use the Internet for assistance? I think not. We all
> do
> that on our OWN time anyway. You would do all these outside of class,
> but
> would NOT take class time away from all the others. Why do it for
> Math. If
> the student isn't prepared for the math necessary for a successful
> physics
> understanding, why hold back others by wasting their time? And, yes, I
> typed
> and meant 'wasting'.
>
> I'm sure this is coming across as callous and/or uncaring. Sigh... In a
> perfect world, like Seti Alpha V, ALL students would be totally
> prepared and
> eager to consume our experiences. This is the Planet Earth. They
> aren't. We
> can't. I see this as a 'made-up' dilemma. Too many students who aren't
> prepared to learn are suddenly slammed into that 'Physics Wall'. All
> of a
> sudden, it's our fault. I don't buy it.
>
> And as for 'Physics First'? Geez! I need a few more beers before I
> tackle
> that mess again...
>
> Teach Physics.
>
> Daryl L. Taylor, Fizzix Guy
> Greenwich HS, CT
> PAEMST '96
> International Internet Educator of the Year '03
> NASA SEU Educator Ambassador
> www.DarylScience.com
>
> This email prepared and transmitted using 100% recycled electrons!