Re: FW: politeness etc.

[Hugh Haskell <hhaskell@MINDSPRING.COM>]

At 13:32 -0800 2/4/03, Bernard Cleyet wrote:
> "Traditional university physics culture (especially graduate study and
> research) has embraced the often-hostile, cutting "legal
> advocacy-style" debate of ideas and usually neglects the interpersonal
> relationship side of interactions.  Traditional physics culture is
> almost certainly responsible for creating a lack of particular
> populations -- like women and African-Americans in the field; they're
> staying away in droves.  Physics continues to pay a high price for this
> traditional culture.   Some of us want this culture to change, and we
> are working very hard at change. (AIP even reports that there are fewer
> than 1% minorities in _HS level_ physics teaching.)"
>
> Coincidence:  Yesterday on National Petroleum Radio I heard two women trail
> blazers at Harvard Law School where the Faculty were proud that there were
> no Women's rooms in the building.  They reported how difficult "The Paper
> Chase" was for them.
>
> The Dean had a separate meeting for the woman.  He asked them why they had
> come to HLS.  Fortunately, the first one put him in his place:  "Because I
> couldn't get into Yale."
>
> bc  who in US grad school had only one woman colleague and she switched to
> Math!   In England at least 1/3 of the seniors were women, fewer,
> unfortunately, grad students.
Excellent point, Bernard. I'm sure this atmosphere in physics has
contributed to the dearth of women in the field. But, on the other
hand, this "combative" style of debate is not limited to just physics
departments. And it is only when one gets into the advanced stages of
graduate work that one sees this behavior in action. If this is so,
why has it had so much more effect in physics? I doubt we are more
acerbic in our criticisms than chemists or biologists. So why are
there more women in those fields than in physics?

And I am a member of another list, one not associated with science,
although there are several scientists who contribute to it, where the
debate is often vigorous and passionate, but where there are a large
fraction of women who regularly participate and who give as good as
they get in the debates. Were they physicists, they could easily hold
their own in the debates on this list.

So while I agree with you that the style of criticism and debate that
happens within physics may well deter some from entering the field, I
suspect that it is not a prime cause, and that we are going to have
to look further than just improving the climate of discourse within
our field. We need to do that, of course, but I wouldn't look for it
to have a huge effect.

Unfortunately, I suspect that the causes are many and varied, to to
improve the general educational climate to encourage women and
non-Asian minorities to enter the field, is going to require that we
do lots of little things (and some big ones), none of which will, in
itself have a big effect, but the cumulative effect will be much
bigger. If we ever succeed in creating a climate within physics where
any person so inclined, regardless of gender or ethnicity, feels
welcome, I doubt we will be able to look back and identify any one or
even a small group of changes that made it happen.

I think Sheila Tobias had a handle on some of the issues in her book
"They're Not Dumb, They're Different: Stalking the Second Tier." I
recommend that book to anyone interested in making physics in
particular and science and engineering in general more receptive to
those who now are put off by it.

Hugh
--

Hugh Haskell
<mailto:haskell@ncssm.edu>
<mailto:hhaskell@mindspring.com>

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