Re: Non-conservative forces in a liquid dielectric

[Brian Whatcott <betwys@SBCGLOBAL.NET>]

At 10:22 AM 5/31/2003 +0200, Pentcho, you wrote:
> /snip/Is the statement "perpetual
> motion machine of the second kind is impossible" the result of a theory?
> I am afraid it is not even an experimentally tested proposition.

There are many historical examples of experimentally testing
'perpetuum' propositions. It is found that they stop.
Without exception.

/snip/ In the present case, the easiest thing to
> do is to partially immerse the capacitor in the pool, punch a hole in
> one of the plates, near the pool's surface, and see if water would leak
> through the hole. That is extremely easy but I am unable to do any
> experiment - I hardly survive. I have been asking physicists to do this
> experiment for several years - no effect. This shows how efficient the
> curse "perpetuum mobile of the second kind" is.
>
> Pentcho

There is a danger when cultivating a favored theory that one promotes
a proposition to an "idee fixe".

Let us suppose, one believes that a charged capacitor would leak water
from the dielectric space through an aperture.
If someone points out that water does not leak from the edge aperture,
then one can rationalize that an edge is not a hole.

If someone points out that a comparable gedanken would allow leakage
 from an exit hole in a capillary, then one can rationalize that the physics
effects said to explain the absence of a perpetuum in a capacitor are in
just as much error as the physics effects said to explain the
absence of the first kind of perpetuum.

 Next, let us suppose, that an experimenter punches a small hole below
the water dielectric surface of a charged capacitor without effect.
And he shows that an exit hole in a capillary does not leak water.

When he reports that water does not leak out, experimentally
 one  then has two choices:
1) Accept contingently that the favored theory may be in error.
2) Reject the finding, citing experimental error.

Which position do you feel you would adopt?

Brian Whatcott    Altus OK