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Re: That and which (Was : Re: A language issue (comment))

From the length of this thread and its contents, I conclude that, patting ourselves on the back, a large number of careful and educated writers have noticed, or at least wondered about, the difference
between "which" and "that". I suggest that a discerning person will know immediately if the phrase following one of them is restrictive or not -- assuming the writer also did.

From the skunk book (3rd ed. $5.95+tx):

The lawn mower that is broken is in the garage. and:

The lawn mower, which is broken, is in the garage.

The former tells which one. The latter adds a fact about the only mower in question.

The writers cont. stating the commonality of the confusion, and give an example from the bible ......"unto B., and see this thing which is come to pass." "Occasionally 'which' seems preferable to
'that', as in the sentence from the bible. But it would be a convenience to all if these two pronouns were used with precision. The careful writer, watchful for small conveniences, goes
'which'-hunting, removes the defining 'whiches', and by so doing improves his work."

Follett's example [Modern English Usage 1980] is: "... the schools which educate our children." Does this mean some schools educate (restrictive), and some do not, or that all schools educate
(nonrestrictive)? He argues that, "A fundamental, often crucial difference of meaning is thus left to turn on the mere absence or presence of the least of the punctuation marks, the comma, which is
so easily lost on the way to the page."

So use which (or who) with a comma (unrestrictive) and that w/o a comma for restrictive clauses.

Follett does recap the history of defining clauses from Dryden (all clauses set off by commas, thereby rendering the correct use of "which" or "that" essential) to the present method proposed by the
Fowlers' Kings English 1906 (see R.D. below). He continues with examples of exceptions from Marlowe, Mencken, and Hemingway, "but the confusion need not obscure the fact that the followers of the
Fowler doctrine often contribute to greater certainty in one large department of writing. (Fowler Modern English Usage 1926: "If writers would agree to regard "that" as the defining [restrictive]
relative pronoun, and "which" as the non-defining, there would be much gain both in lucidity and in ease.")

The (which or that) entry, in Follett, occupies several pages.

bc


P.s. I have accumulated three third ed. Skunk books varying in price : $1.95, $3.95, and $5.95 -- this one purchased ca. 1995. Also a hard bound first ed. for $250, but it was used.

P.p.s. Someone (I've lost the msg. -- may be another list?) posted a sentence ending with a preposition followed by an acknowledge that something was wrong, but was too tired to correct it. Rest
assured even great writers make this "error." for example: "Mommy why did you bring that book I don't like to be read out of up for?" "Churchill, defending his use of terminal prepositions."



Rodney Dunning wrote:

The 'rule' people are referring to ("use the relative pronoun 'that'- not
which- for restrictive clauses") was invented out of whole cloth by Henry
and Francis Fowler in a 1906 Grammar text (_The King's English_). The
Fowler's decided on everyone else's behalf that the random variation between
'that' and 'which' in restrictive clauses was messy. After Francis died in
1918, Henry produced _A Dictionary of Modern English Usage_. He discusses
that vs. which for about a page, but then writes, "Some there are who follow
this principle now; but it would be idle to pretend that it is the practice
either of the most or of the best writers (pg. 635)."

Personally, I follow Joseph Williams' reasoning on this (and other) points:
if a vast number of competent English writers use 'that' and 'which'
interchangeably, and the vast majority of careful, educated readers don't
notice, then there is no 'rule' regarding these words, regardless of what
the Fowlers or anyone else says.

See Williams, _Style, Ten Lessons in Clarity and Grace_, pg. 22-24. (It's at
amazon.com, btw.)

--
Rodney Dunning
voice: x4977
e-mail: dunnirb4@wfu.edu
URL: http://www.wfu.edu/users/dunnirb4

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Schweber" <edschweb@IX.NETCOM.COM>
To: <PHYS-L@lists.nau.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 2:15 PM
Subject: Re: A language issue (comment)

Leigh Palmer wrote (in part)

I have an annoying grammatical problem. I frequently misuse "which"
and "that".

Leigh and others:

I seem to recall that Skunk and White say in their well known language
manual that "that" and "which"an be used interchangeably.

Ed Schweber