more Jackson

["Rauber, Joel Phys" <RAUBERJ@mg.sdstate.edu>]

I'm pleased with all the discussion this generated.  And can't resist a few 
responses to some of the comments generated.

> If the instructor is merely an information source, how is he or she
> better than a book?

Yes, and often a damn good one, they aren't better or worse than a book, but 
different from the book and therefore provide an alternative.  This is even 
true for a lecturer who is mostly lecturing from a book.  More importantly, 
I can ask the human being questions, even in lecture or harrass them later.

> Or perhaps a videotaped presentation is a better
> substitute for a good lecture (after all, in a large lecture, few
> actually get to ask questions).  I've got it, let's put some really good
> lectures on CD-ROM.

> They'll be interactive so the user can ask
> questions.  If the CD doesn't have a preprogrammed answer, there could be
> an email address to ask questions.  That way, we can avoid any pesky
> interaction with others during valuable class time.

I like to be able to harrass an actual human being, a little of this can go 
on in valuable class time (which is valuable when you only have 41 lectures 
a semester; again depth vs breadth could be discussed here), but more of it 
can go on outside of class with peers and even hard to find instructors; 
although I preferred having easy to find instructors for instructors.  I 
haven't seen a CD yet that was really interactive.

> {heavy-handed sarcasm intended above :)}

Being a lover of sarcasm, the above is appreciated. :-)


Chris wrote,

> When you expect group learning to just "happen" outside
> of your field of vision, you don't see the deliberate exclusion still 
taking
> place.  Yes, EVEN in graduate school!

I'm not so sure it happens even in ones field of vision.  I've been in 
enforced group learning situations as a student, and it doesn't necessarily 
help  to avoid exclusions. Nor for effective dynamic to occur within the 
structure of a class-time group.  Group dynamics are paramount here, and 
voluntary groups probably have the best dynamics for learning to take place. 
 Where I was a grad student the women students (of which there weren't many) 
seemed to find groups to work with in general; although I'll admit that 
there were some groups that excluded them, but there were others that 
didn't.  Exclusions are naturally based on other factors, often on 
personalities.

I don't like to see exclusions either, but I don't really quite know what is 
an appropriate response.  (Actually, I do, but that response occurs in 
kindergarten and in the instruction that parents give their kids, not at a 
University level, where its too late for the most part).  I was mostly just 
making the observation, that I saw an awful lot of group work occuring 
naturally as a grad student and I'll add here with very little exclusion 
(although I won't say that exclusion was non-existent).

> The problems that I did as an undergraduate in quantum chemistry
> were not just to help me understand the material already presented.  Often
> there were NEW CONCEPTS embedded in the homework...so the problems were not
> a method of reinforcement but of presentation.  It is appropriate, if not
> always necessary, for an instructor of some type to be there for this 
process.

My opinion, is that it can be quite appropriate to have some new concepts 
embedded in the homework; not enough time in valuable lecture time to cover 
all important concepts.  As an instructor Iam always there for part of this 
process; either in office hours (open door policy) or even as grader of the 
homework.  Why should new concepts only be introduced in classtime?

> . . .For those of you who are uninitiated, the copyright
> ?rules in those two areas permit the carte blanche copying of all copyright
> material.  As a result, complete worked solution manuals can be obtained
> for ANY technical text..AND JACKSON IS ONE OF THEM!

Interesting anecdote, and I experienced it as a student (and was quite 
invious as a student of the students from Taiwan who had this book) 
Although, the two students that I recall were not at the top of the class 
(they were probably above the 50th percentile, but were also clearly better 
prepared in general and with better math skills).  Not all the solutions in 
those manuals are correct, which can make for interesting conversations with 
a student.  Also, I insist as an instructor that intervening steps be shown, 
if not there, less credit is given.

I may be lucky that most of my students are from mainland China and don't 
seem to have as much access to these books.

There has been some talk of leveling the playing field.  How on earth are 
going to do that in Grad school.  My students come from different schools 
with quite different backgrounds.  The playing field is inherently uneven. 
 My American students are often at a disadvantage because of lack of breadth 
and depth in prior training.  Also, lack of discipline in self-study and 
taking on some responsability for one's own learning, which gets to leigh's 
comment,

> In order to get the message students
> will have to learn to extract it the old fashioned way: they will
> have to work for it. If they have not learned that by the time they
> get to you then you must demonstrate it to them by example.

Learning takes hard work and responsibility on the part of the student and 
if that isn't there the game is lost.  I agree that style of presentation 
(production values I mean) are rather meaningless here, because often it 
tries to make education an endeavor that doesn't require work on the 
recipient; and learning ain't that way.

enough, after I leave with one quote:

A visiting Chinese professor of great experience was asked what he thought 
was most important for teaching at a seminar here at my institution.

His reply was that a teacher must love his students; (I'd say care for his 
students) and that was the number one thing. Personally, I think that was a 
sage reply.

Joel