Re: [Phys-L] liberatarians was: Re: John Lienhard on Absolutism, Evolution and Education, Engines of our Ingenuity No.2132

[Marty Weiss <martweiss@comcast.net>]

enough already... too many falsehoods here to refute without upsetting the physics people who want to discuss physics,;  but some things I just can't let slide.
On Jul 11, 2013, at 8:09 PM, LaMontagne, Bob wrote:

> Marty,
>
> I didn't use the word "interference" - although I might when it involves purely social issues.
>
> Food and safety issues can be handled through lawsuits.
nonsense!  unless you have millions and a battery of lawyers the individual or small groups do not stand a chance against the rich and famous.  
> Likewise for child labor and low wages, etc.  The laws were basically unnecessary because society had decided to change - the laws just followed them.
untrue... laws came along despite the outcries from wealthy industrialists... it was a progressive legislative branch which took on the industrialists but merely set them back a few decades.
 
> My father was beaten up by State Police during an attempt to unionize a plant. Instead of helping, the government actually got in the way and sided with the company.

Gangs of New York...  private police forces owned by industry.

> When people are fed up with something and take mass action - things change - at that point lawsuits can do just as much as legislation - with the added benefit of the victims getting compensation.

sorry.. these things don't happen this way... fairy tales.   Without the hand of LBJ the South had to bow to civil rights, after mass protests.  If the president didn't act nothing would have changed.  Likewise, President Eisenhower's troops at the doors of Little Rock HS (I believe it was there.)    We are now seeing all this being reversed by SCOTUS's 5-4 vote nullifying the voting rights act.  To use an analogy that has been used earlier:  it's like when a heavy dose of antibiotic calms the infection but if you stop taking it the infection comes back.    
> People got aid before all the safety nets. Extended families stayed intact because people had to help each other out. The huge government "safety nets" made the extended family irrelevant. I agree it would be difficult to turn things around in a short time, but society would easily adapt in a generation.
again, untrue.  the safety nets were enacted by several Presidents and progressives in Congress BECAUSE they were needed then and still are needed.  It is utter nonsense to believe if social security and medicare were phased out the next generation would adapt.  Private funding of retirement is now the norm and millions of people in their 60's and even in their 70's find they have to work longer because they don't have enough to live comfortable lives.  Do away with medical help and we will go back to times when the er's are lined up 
> Fairness is guaranteed by the Constitution.
where?

> But that fairness is only enacted if society sees a need for it.  Insurance is the responsibility of the individual. Again, people used to save and bail each other out before disability insurance - and there were all kinds of private charities that took up the slack.
which do not exist any longer because lawyers for the wealthy industrialists have seen to it that unless you have millions you do not stand a chance against the rich and powerful.

> People had it hard because the government in the past sided with the large companies - that's where the payoffs came from. But much of that changed because of public outrage - the legislation followed the outrage - never preceded it - but by that time the problem was on the way taking care of itself.
true... but without the laws we would be back in "Gangs of New York" era.  every man for himself
> Fairness does not mean every man for himself. Quite the contrary, it requires compassion and cooperation between people. No responsible Libertarian would advocate pulling the plug on all the government programs with nothing to take their place. To remove the heavy had of government from our lives requires an alternate structure to be built in its place -
what structure and whose philosophy operates in the place of government programs?  those with enough wealth and poser to control the services that come to fill the vacuum.

> please don't confuse Libertarian philosophy with Anarchy. We would look to the judicial branch of government to provide the foundation for the alternate structure - and have far less reliance on the legislative branch. Legislatures are the epitome of unfairness - laws are structured to cater to special interests. The courts are not perfect, but they have a better track record of fairness in their rulings.
Ah... the courts.... does that include the courts of the Old South where many of the injustices happened before the government got involved in civil rights?  That's why the government got involved in the first place... the courts were stacked against the working people, racially and socially.

> Finally, look what government "safety nets" have done to the black race. Despite the abolishing of slavery and the way society was turned inside out during the civil rights movement - government programs have essentially crippled black society to the point it is not functional. Where is the fairness in that?
So, you are saying the civil rights movement that "turned society inside out" ... that was a mistake for the government to get involved?
And as for the old canard that social programs destroyed Black society... that is a myth that is perpetuated by the racists who would like to see Blacks back in their "place".   You should know better!   
> By the way, your friend sounds more like a right wing survivalist than a Libertarian. Libertarians would definitely have police forces, fire departments, etc., but they would be private - not government run. And yes - they would be paid for by taxation - but they would be more accountable to the town councils that hired them because they could be replaced.

Private police forces?  private fire departments?   complete and utter BS...  scary BS at that.   Paid for by taxation... that is how they are paid now.  They are already accountable to town councils.   Let's take this to the next step of privatization of police, fire, and schools (which is on your agenda as well)... That means that only the wealthy get protected or educated.  public schools?  equitible Charter schools?  gone, replaced by private academies where the rich kids go.  Oh, wait... that is done already by the whites of the South who took their kids out of the public schools and started private academies rather than have their kids go to school with Black kids.  It still exists, my friends!  Only, if libertarians have their way the whole country's education system  would be run that way.  

> As a New England native, I am used to volunteer fire departments and neighborhood watches - they do work - because they are neighbor helping neighbor.

Still do, until the need becomes so great that you need a paid force with taxpayer money to support them.   New England volunteers are fine.. in the small towns and villages.  We had that here in Cherry Hill until the need for funding and increased population growth made us evolve into a paid department which is among the most efficient in the state, because we are taxpayer funded.  
> Libertarians basically want the same kind of world as you - we just believe that people are capable of providing that world better than large government can - and are capable of not being exploited by narrow interests (unless those interests have government protection).

If enough people are wealthy enough to control the services in their own interest which may not often coincide with the rest of us.  
>