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Re: [Phys-l] a conservation equation



That's kind of what I suspected. Conservation of energy allows one to avoid the use of vectors (very useful in multiple dimensions). Using time related potentials would eliminate that advantage.

Thanks,

Bob at PC

-----Original Message-----
From: phys-l-bounces@carnot.physics.buffalo.edu [mailto:phys-l-bounces@carnot.physics.buffalo.edu] On Behalf Of Bob Sciamanda
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 12:02 PM
To: Forum for Physics Educators
Subject: Re: [Phys-l] a conservation equation

The conservation of energy when only conservative forces are acting is
really only of significant usefulness in problems involving more than one
dimension - giving a really useful meaning to a force/space integral being
independent of path. Since there is only one dimension of time, the
usefulness of an analogaous approach for time dependent forces does not add
any great advatage (or difference) over the direct integration of N2 in
time.

Bob Sciamanda
Physics, Edinboro Univ of PA (Em)
treborsci@verizon.net
http://mysite.verizon.net/res12merh/

--------------------------------------------------
From: "LaMontagne, Bob" <RLAMONT@providence.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 11:25 AM
To: "Forum for Physics Educators" <phys-l@carnot.physics.buffalo.edu>
Subject: [Phys-l] a conservation equation

I was looking at the usual derivation of conservation of energy for a ball
thrown in the air. One starts with F=ma, rewrite as F=m dv/dt = m dv/dy
dy/dt = m v dv/dy, and then rearrange to Fdy = mv dv. Let the force F be
gravity (-mg) and integrate the rearranged version of Newton's Law from y1
to y2 and v1 to v2 to get

mgy1 + KE1 = mgy2 + KE2

One can do a similar derivation using t. Start with F = m dv/dt, rearrange
to Fdt=mdv (a vector equation), let the force be -mgj (j is unit vector
along vertical) and integrate from t1 to t2 and v1 to v2 (vectors). One
obtains

mgt1 j + mv1 = mgt2 j +mv2

or

mgt1 j + p1 = mgt2 j + p2 (vector p's)

This is formally similar to the conservation of energy equation, the
difference being that it is a vector equation and that it involves
momentum and a term mgt analogous to mgy. The energy equation conserves
the sum of KE and a positional energy. The other equation conserves the
sum of momentum and a temporal term.

Is anyone aware of an attempt to develop a momentum-time conservation
approach to physics similar to the familiar KE-position conservation
approach - i.e., an attempt to avoid an impulse-momentum approach by
using a conservation law involving momentum and a temporal potential of
sorts similar to an avoidance of a work-KE approach by using conservation
of KE and positional energies? I would assume that the biggest impediment
would be finding suitable forces that are functions of time instead of
position.

Bob at PC
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