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Re: [Phys-l] Ca mandates 8th-grade algebra test



From another Geezer:
School grades are not necessarily the most important issues in the lives of adolescents. An adolescent is busy learning how to get along with his/her peers, how to deal with family issues, acquire spending money and plan for the future. At the community college level, most of my students had part time jobs, often night jobs. They'd come to school an hour early, hoping to get their homework done (while listening to their Walkman's -or whatever).
Ninth grade algebra was difficult for me, but I "got" the idea of representing numbers by symbols early on. Many of my close friends didn't. But many of them saw other kinds of relationships that evaded me.
I think that the crucial step in my development came after 10th grade when I had a summer job at the municipal swimming pools (in a modest size Montana city). The supervisor was one of the high school history teachers - a former bar-room poker dealer who taught us card tricks - who would give me geometry problems to take home at night. Imressing him, at the time, was the most important goal in my life, so I would sit up until late, late at night, struggling with his geometry problems. After that, dealing with trigonometric identities was a snap (I knew how to study and learn) and math starting to become a natural language for me.
Regards,
Jack




On Fri, 11 Jul 2008, Shapiro, Mark wrote:

I really don't think kids have changed that much. The average IQ is still about 100, and about half the kids in the given eighth grade class will have IQs above 100 -- the rest will be of below average intelligence.

Even though I'm a geezer I can still remember my eighth grade class at Agassiz Grammar School in Cambridge, MA (within blocks of Harvard). Some of my fellow students were sharp as tacks and others were dull as doorknobs. Though they didn't teach algebra until the ninth grade in those days, I'm sure some of us could have handled it in eight grade. But others in the class were struggling with basic arithmetic.

I remember one "parents night" where the mother of one of my good friends, who was a great kid -- but who had little academic talent -- asked the teacher about college for her son. The teacher tried very gently and diplomatically that perhaps her son should think about a job working with his hands. These days a grade school teacher would risk her job if she suggested that any student wasn't college material.

Mark Shapiro


-----Original Message-----
From: phys-l-bounces@carnot.physics.buffalo.edu on behalf of julie_hilsenteger@centennial.k12.or.us
Sent: Thu 7/10/2008 10:02 PM
To: Forum for Physics Educators
Subject: Re: [Phys-l] Ca mandates 8th-grade algebra test

As a public school teacher, I have experienced exactly the same things. I always get the sense that a lot of people on the list are older and have not had a lot if dealings with schools directly. I don't think they understand how much it has changed. Kids get passed on in lower grades whether they know the material or not. There is no flunking a grade and being held back anymore. Therefore, at the high school level, we get a lot of students who don't really meet what I would term "prereqs for high school freshmen". This changes the dynamics so much. I thik it is going to be really hard to get all 8th graders to pass algebra when some can't even do simple math. Major changes in the lower levels will have to occur.
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: "Paul Lulai" <plulai@stanthony.k12.mn.us>

Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 23:37:08
To: Forum for Physics Educators<phys-l@carnot.physics.buffalo.edu>; Forum for Physics Educators<phys-l@carnot.physics.buffalo.edu>
Subject: Re: [Phys-l] Ca mandates 8th-grade algebra test


To address Trevors Point:
Did you ever hear, "you have the potential to be doing much better. if you'd apply yourself, you would be doing much better." ? I heard it. Didn't do much good. I've said it A LOT. I've heard other teachers say it to other students. I've also said almost exactly what you claim you think you needed to hear. Things along the lines of, "You are getting a C (or D, F, B, A-) You should be getting an A. You are smarter than the work you produce. If you keep doing this, you end up getting punished with more boring courses. The excitement comes in application of principles. Keep this up and your most advaced class will deal with how to balance a check-book. Boring. Do the work and our physics classes build boats, rockets, take apart cameras, etc..." This conversation has been had at varying levels of brutality and care. It is a common conversation. We try to find new ways to say it. It doesn't work as often as we'd like. In fact it is pretty rare to get any chan!
ge*
.

We have actually said to heck with it (really did) and put a few of these kids in higher level classes because the family and a doctor claimed the kids were of higher aptitude and simply need a challenge. These kids failed miserably. The teachers were told to make special care and make sure the kid was treated fairly by their classmates. We are a small school. The teachers know the student body. To have no conversation on the topic with staff would be a bit silly. The kids failed the additional challenge. So oddly enough, putting a kid earning average to below average grades in entry or average classes into advanced classes doesn't necessarily work.

To Bob's Point:
<<<"Everyone on this list lauds evolutionary theory over creationism. Yet somehow many have become convinced that all these kids have lost the intelligence we had at their age in just a few generations. ">>>
Come on. What percentage of the adult population has the talent-level of those on this list? This gift has not been lost in a couple of generations. It has remained, but likely in nearly the same percentage of people. I would argue that is what tracking is for. Test kids, separate them into math classes by their ability. For the BCs, a kid isn't locked into 'dummy math' throughout high school simply due to their original placement. The following year's options (with course electives etc...) are always based on pre-req's. Pass a class, then choose your next course.


*One exceptional exception did figure it out after his sophomore year. He finished h.s. with calc 2 (taking Calc 1 as a class and on his own figuring out how to pass the calc 2 test), 1 physics class & an intro to engineering class became math major & just received an award for excelling as an instructor in recitation sessions. His freshman year he asked about mercury switches. I asked why he was curious. WIth a bit of digging, I found the kid had both The Anarchists Cookbook and The Amateur James Bond. Scary as a freshman. HE figured it out. I tried to push him. His math teachers tried to push him. For whatever reason, the switch went on.




Paul Lulai (where I think I am almost a lock to take the bait on public school shots, and I don't mind).
Physics Teacher
US First Robotics Teacher
..:: Medtronic - St Anthony RoboHuskie 2574 ::..
Science Olympiad Coach
St. Anthony Village Senior High
Saint Anthony Village, MN
55418
(w) 612-706-1144
(fax) 612-706-1020
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http://www.robohuskie.com <http://www.robohuskie.com/>
http://prettygoodphysics.wikispaces.com <http://prettygoodphysics.wikispaces.com/>
http://go4st8physics.wordpress.com <http://go4st8physics.wordpress.com/>
http://www.stanthony.k12.mn.us/hsscience/ <http://www.stanthony.k12.mn.us/hsscience/>

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