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-----Original Message-----lived
From: phys-l-bounces@carnot.physics.buffalo.edu [mailto:phys-l-
bounces@carnot.physics.buffalo.edu] On Behalf Of Shapiro, Mark
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 4:44 PM
To: rbtarara@sprynet.com; Forum for Physics Educators; phys-
l@carnot.physics.buffalo.edu
Subject: Re: [Phys-l] Taxes
Dear Rick et al.,
A comment or two about California's Proposition 13 from someone who
through it.and
First, Prop. 13 was pushed not so much by homeowners but by businesses
apartment house owners. They managed to convince homeowners thattheir
property taxes were too high and rising too fast, but they were risingreduced
only because the value of their houses was rising fairly fast.
Prop. 13 was structured in such a way that property tax rates were
somewhat initially and annual increases in assessed value were cappedat
about 2% regardless of the actual increase in value so long as youthe
retained ownership of the property. However, when you sold your house
taxes the new owner would pay would be based on the market value ofthe
house at the time it was bought.knew
The reason that businesses and apartment house owners pushed this
Proposition was that they knew that residential property changed hands
much more frequently than commercial property. Thus, over time they
that the bulk of the property tax burden would shift from business13
property to residential property. The biggest beneficiaries of Prop.
have not been homeowners but large commercial property owners such asand
Pacific Gas and Electric, Southern California Edison, other utilities
railroads because they hold their real property for decades while thelived
average home in California is resold about every five to seven years.
This has led to great inequities for homeowners. For example, I've
in my house since 1970. My property taxes are about $900 per year ona
house worth about $550,000 in today's market. My neighbor across thethe
street, pays about four times as much in property taxes as I do for
same value house because he bought his house much more recently.Prop.
In addition because the property tax basis was reduced so much by
13, funding for education had to be shifted in large part from localstate
property taxes to other taxes such as the state sales tax and the
income tax. Since the sales tax is highly regressive -- low andmiddle
income people pay a much larger share of their incomes in sales taxesthan
do wealthy people, businesses and large corporation -- low and middlefrustrating--
income people have ended up paying a much bigger share of the bill for
education than they should.
Regards,
Mark Shapiro
-----Original Message-----
From: phys-l-bounces@carnot.physics.buffalo.edu on behalf of
rbtarara@sprynet.com
Sent: Mon 3/3/2008 12:47 PM
To: phys-l@carnot.physics.buffalo.edu
Subject: Re: [Phys-l] Taxes
Trying to reply via web-mail from a dial-up machine has been
but will try again, even if this is mostly off-topic.sounds
John, what's really different about deferred taxes and captial gains
taxes? Don't know if the states can grab a piece of that pie--but
like it is basically the same idea?to
Bernard--If you don't feel you are paying enough tax, please feel free
send some extra to the powers that be. Maybe you should run foroffice on
a platform of MORE TAX---but please wear your kevlar vest!Then
Seems to me (and others) that there are only two 'fair' taxes. INCOME
TAX--you have to have income to be able to pay tax. Holding property
provides ZERO guarantee that you have money available for taxes. Of
course income has to be ANY income coming to you from any source.
you have SALES TAX. If you have money to spend, then some of thatcan
spending gets taxed. The advantage to this kind of tax is that you
exempt some basic needs (basic foods, some base level of energy needs,money
etc.) so as not to unduly penalize the 'poor'. You can save your
without penalty, but when you go buy all the useless and/or expensivethe
stuff that powers our economy--you get taxed. Everyone pays through
sales tax, and in my mind that is good. Having a large percentage ofthe
population paying little or no tax is not healthy in that those peoplecan
have no real ownership of the government. Through shear numbers they
maybe vote in people who will hand them more services, even moneownership.
y, but they have put nothing in. Sales taxes give them some
graduated
Now whether or not to mix the two, have one or the other, have
income taxes or flat taxes, how many entities--federal, state, county,much
city get a piece of you, is all food for political debates--and not
to do with the list. Property tax--which usually is used forschools--is
fair game, but is hardly fair taxation. It often works out that thoseand
getting the fewest services end up paying the biggest piece of the pie
with apartments usually taxes way lower than houses, the burden isoften
not shared at all fairly. I will also argue that there really are noindividuals.
business or corporate taxes. Those all end up being paid by
OK, if a company does most of its business overseas it may look likeexporting
someone else is paying the freight, but surely foreign companies
to the U.S. are paying their taxes with consumer dollars as well.values
I don't know the details of Prop 13 but let me guess that part of the
problem with the taxation was the ridiculous inflation of property
in California (whole West Coast--East coast too for that matter).While I
have little sympathy for someone who pays a million for what would bea
200k house elsewhere, I do sympathize with those who bought the 200khouse
and now find it taxes as a million dollar property. That milliondollar
value is useless unless you are willing to sell and move, and Isuspect
many are not.after a
Last summer visited my grad school mentor and he recently retired
carreer in San Jose California and moved to Sharp's ChappelTennessee--
BECAUSE of taxes. So some California people might argue with beingIndiana
undertaxed. Property taxes have caused a serious revolt here in
and the legislature is currently trying to pass a cap (1% of assessedother
value) with a 1% increase in sales taxes because of the uproar. In
words--raising property taxes anywhere is not going to win youfriends.
Too long and too off topic, but I'll try and send this anyway.
Rick
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Forum for Physics Educators
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_______________________________________________
Forum for Physics Educators
Phys-l@carnot.physics.buffalo.edu
https://carnot.physics.buffalo.edu/mailman/listinfo/phys-l