Chronology Current Month Current Thread Current Date
[Year List] [Month List (current year)] [Date Index] [Thread Index] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Date Prev] [Date Next]

Re: grades, pass/fail etc.



Pass/Fail can work reasonably well with well motivated students with good
work ethics, but consider what would happen (does happen) with the greater
proportion of students under pass/fail systems. They figure out how to do
the minimum amount of work to pass. While such students aren't going to go
out of their way to 'learn' in graded classes, you can often get them to do
enough work to actually develop a skill or two and even learn something in
spite of themselves. Under pass/fail the only goal is to 'pass'.

So, IMO (which has changed--used to think this was a great idea), pass/fail
systems are only good for high-end college prep programs and prestigious
university programs where the school reputation AND the standardized test
scores (SAT,GRE,MCAT) of the already highly motivated students will get them
into the colleges or graduate programs they seek.

It would take a much larger kind of experiment with some full-range
(student-wise) high-schools and colleges going totally pass-fail and then
comparing a few years of state achievement tests, SAT, ACT, GRE, MCAT, etc.
scores between equivalent graded programs and pass/fail programs to convince
me that pass/fail would work for the majority.

I would be interested in how the students in the 'high-end' pass/fail
systems like it. I have anecdotal accounts that says at least some
don't--the lack of a 'reward' or a ranking of their achievement bothers
them.

Rick

*********************************************************
Richard W. Tarara
Professor of Physics
Saint Mary's College
Notre Dame, Indiana
rtarara@saintmarys.edu
********************************************************
Free Physics Educational Software (Win & Mac)
www.saintmarys.edu/~rtarara/software.html
NEW: Mac versions of Lab Simulations
********************************************************
----- Original Message -----
From: "John S. Denker" <jsd@MONMOUTH.COM>
To: <PHYS-L@lists.nau.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 9:18 AM
Subject: Re: grades, pass/fail etc.


Steve Clark wrote:

My first year teaching was in a private school where the
only grades we gave was PASS or FAIL. Amazingly, most
students did very well when we took the grade pressure off
of them. ....

Tim O'Donnell wrote:

I often have thought that pass/fail is the way to go. I do
think students would then focus better on learning. I
have often thought about a check list. A student does
receive credit until all topic are checked. A lot of students
(some who want to be engineers) avoid my class because
it might hurt their GPA. It seems that the GPA is
increasing in importance. How important is a GPA? I
don't think things will change much and I will continue
to try to convince student the importance of the class is
not the grade, but the knowledge - wish me luck.

1) I agree that grades aren't that important.
Tell your students that after they've been out of school
for about 10 days, nobody will ever care what their GPA
was; they'll be judged on their real-world performance,
which depends on what they have actually _learned_ (and
depends not at all on GPA).

2) When teachers tell this to students, the story would
be more credible if the schools would back it up, for
instance by pass/fail grading as Steve mentioned.

There is a small trade school in Pasadena that has used an
interesting pass/fail regime for several decades. It seems
to work. Details include (approximately):
-- First-term and second-term students are automatically
graded pass/fail, no matter what the course.
-- Thereafter students can choose one elective each term
to be graded pass/fail. This elective must not be one
of the courses required for the student's major.
-- Students can sign up for a bunch of electives, and they
don't need to decide until "drop day" (late in the term)
which one to designate as pass/fail and which one(s) to
drop.

For full details, see
http://pr.caltech.edu/catalog/01_02/geninfo/grades.html

Consequences include:
*) Freshmen tend to be hyper-competitive when they arrive.
They are accustomed to being at the top of every class in
high school, and suddenly 90% of them find themselves outside
of the top 10% for the first time. It takes them a few months
to get over it.
*) Grades are still as meaningful as they ever were (whatever
that means :-) because the courses required for the major are
still graded.
*) OTOH there is virtually no penalty for taking non-required
courses.

==========================

Action item: Don't just harangue students about the
unimportance of grades. Take it up with the school
administration. Get 'em to institute a sensible
pass/fail policy.