Re: ENERGY WITH Q

["John S. Denker" <jsd@MONMOUTH.COM>]

At 02:05 PM 10/27/01 -0600, Jim Green wrote:

> W is the work done which does not change the entropy.  Q is the
> work which does. ie deltaS=Q/T.

This is just word games.  It assigns the conventional (but troublesome)
meaning to the symbols W and Q.  It just redefines the word "work" in an
idiosyncratic way.  If we rewrite that one word we get something completely
conventional (but troublesome):

]]      W is the energy transfer done which does not change the entropy.
]]      Q is the energy transfer which does. ie deltaS=Q/T.

> We both agree that this is not very helpful except in the very narrow case
> of the adiabatic cylinder with a piston.

And maybe not even then....

> >   -- How are W and Q related to "work" in the sense of F dot ds?
>
> Not always, but in the intro course Q is done by high speed molecules
> colliding with low speed molecules -- the molecules of a hot plate
> colliding with the molecules of a glass beaker -- the molecules of a
> propane torch colliding with whatever.
>
> During the collision Work is Done!!!

Again, rewriting "work" --> "energy transfer" makes this completely
conventional.  The ideas have not changed.  The symbols have not
changed.  Only one English word has been idiosyncratically redefined.

> I restrain myself from foul four letter words.

This refers to the word "heat", I presume.

> > I'm mystified. Without a great deal of additional info, I cannot imagine
> > how the notion
> > >        Both Q and W are _work_!
> > is helpful to anyone.
>
> Well, John, for starters such a view would be correct for a change. <g>

I still don't see how an idiosyncratic use of the word "work" and the
idiosyncratic non-use of the word "heat" accomplishes anything.

The core problem is that the idea behind the equation
        Delta E = W + Q
is a bad idea, and it remains a bad idea no matter what words are used to
express it.

> ... -- after cartoon physics and Bill Nye are dealt with

I don't know what this has got to do with anything.  Name-calling and _ad
hominem_ attacks are not a substitute for experiments and methodical reasoning.