Re: real-life physics

[Jack Uretsky <jlu@HEP.ANL.GOV>]

Hi all-
        Larry is mistaken on two counts.
        1.  The quote is from me and not from John Denker who seems to be
an otherwise respectable fellow.
        2.  There are many examples from industry where one starts by
solving a solvable problem which is not the problem at issue.  One notable
example is in the design of aircraft where one gets guidance from
aerodynamic and stability calculations, further guidance from wind-tunnel
experiments but, in the end, must use cut and paste techniques to finally
achieve an acceptable product.
                                Regards,
                                        Jack

On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Larry Woolf wrote:

> In industry, you have to solve the practical research and development
> problem that is presented to you.  You either solve the problem, develop a
> material with the needed properties, meet the specification, etc. or you
> don't.  Your point holds true for the basic research physicist, but not for
> the industrial physicist who has to make a real product or deliverable that
> meets a previously agreed upon specification.
>
> Regards-
> Larry
>
>
> Subject: Re: real-life physics
>
>
> On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, John S. Denker wrote:
> Hi all-
>         While I'm in general agreement, I think that one important tool
> is omitted from "(3)": Problem is too ill-defined or too difficult to
> solve, so solve exactly a well-defined and solvable problem that sheds
> light on the problem at hand.
>         This is often what physics is all about.  To see the method in
> action in practical circumstances look at a copy of Morse and Kimball,
> "Methods of Operations Research", if any still exist.
>                                 Regards,
>                                         Jack
>
>
> > At 09:35 AM 4/23/01 -0700, Larry Woolf wrote:
> >
> > > 3 types of Physics Problems/Solutions:
> > > (1) Conceptual solution
> > >         Pictures, words, diagrams
> > > (2) Standard physics solution
> > >         Use physics principles, laws, equations to solve exactly and
> > > quantitatively a well defined problem
> > > (3) Real Life Solution
> > >         Problem is often ill-defined, many unknowns, too complex to
> solve
> > > directly, interdisciplinary; team work required; may use commercial
> > > computer codes to solve because of the problem's complexity
> >
> > That makes a number of valid and very important points.
> >
> > > In school, focus is on 2.
> > > In real life, focus is on 1 and 3.
> >
> > Slightly overstated perhaps.  My $.02 worth:
> >
> >   -- Usually (1) cannot exist without (2).  Qualitative "conceptual"
> > reasoning in the hands of a master leads to getting the right answer
> > quickly.  In the hands of non-masters it all to often leads to getting the
> > wrong answer quickly.  The folks I know who have great conceptual
> abilities
> > are _also_ really good at calculating things.  Occasionally you can take
> > someone who has good conceptual skills and limited quantitative skills and
> > pair him with someone who has the quantitative skills -- but it is
> > exceedingly hard to form such a team and make it work.  Without the
> > quantitative backup, the conceptual stuff is just guessing.  It's random
> noise.
> >   -- Outside the classroom, (2) usually doesn't exist without (1).  In
> real
> > life, you need to have a conceptual understanding of the problem before
> you
> > have a clue what formulas to apply.
> >
> >   -- I was certainly taught approximation methods in school.  But then
> > again I was blessed with an educational opportunity that most people can
> > barely imagine.
> >
> > > The industrial physicist:
> > > 5 % of time spent on physics problem solving
> > > 20% of time in meetings, and one-on-one discussions, traveling
> > > 30% of time writing reports, presentations, proposals -
> > > 30% of time planning what is to be done and documenting and summarizing
> what
> > > has been done - e.g. using Excel spreadsheets
> > > 15% of time reading, researching
> >
> > It varies a lot, but those numbers serve to illustrate the point.
>
> --
> Franz Kafka's novels and novella's are so Kafkaesque that one has to
> wonder at the enormity of coincidence required to have produced a writer
> named Kafka to write them.
>                         Greg Nagan from "The Metamorphosis" in
>                      <The 5-MINUTE ILIAD and Other Classics>

--
Franz Kafka's novels and novella's are so Kafkaesque that one has to
wonder at the enormity of coincidence required to have produced a writer
named Kafka to write them.
                        Greg Nagan from "The Metamorphosis" in
                     <The 5-MINUTE ILIAD and Other Classics>