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Re: [Phys-l] taxes (was SOLAR , NUCLEAR ENERGY etc.)

Retrofitting is a real problem, especially in the rental market.

Joel suggested tax incentives which is probably the easiest, but ultimately not that effective. The problem is, that the capital expenditure is large and the tax incentives much smaller. Doesn't work out to be a real incentive to the landlord. Also, the lost tax revenues must be recovered--higher taxes elsewhere. It is hard to sell the advantage (especially the financial advantage) to the common taxpayer--especially the property tax payer who now probably picks up the landlords 'incentive', that better insulation paid by the government (through incentives or direct subsidies) is in their favor, even if ultimately it might be.

Building codes can cover new construction and major remodeling, but the situation Joe describes is really tough. Tougher now because with the collapse of the housing and credit market, more people are seeking rental properties. A couple of years ago, low heating/cooling costs would have been a good marketing tool for a given apartment complex. That situation may return, but it is still the problem that energy updates can be costly with long payback times even with tax incentives.

Spent big bucks (more than our first home) last year to update furnace, AC, and WINDOWS! Missed the Federal tax breaks entirely, but discovered my state had one for the windows. However, considering the tax break and the cost of the windows, no one in their right mind (not sure I was in such a state when I look at the bill) would have installed the windows FOR the tax break.

Another ploy though is to have the power companies subsidize the upgrades. The idea is that reduced demand will keep the power company from having to build a new, expensive power plant. So, even though they sell less energy (they can always jack up the price, especially BECAUSE of their philanthropic insulation program) it is to their advantage in the end. That might work in some areas and would have worked a few years ago, but it would seem that the Power companies have discovered WIND. The advantage of wind is that they can add capacity in small increments at small capital costs. The total load covered by wind is still small enough that the companies can handle 'calm days' by maxing out their coal/nuclear or by drawing from the grid. This is ultimately a way to higher profits (I think) than giving away insulation. Down the road, when the U.S. reaches its stated (semi-short term) goal of 20% of electricity from wind, the calm day may well produce some local brownouts. If and when wind might take over a larger percentage and of the whole energy demand, that grid better be damn smart! Well at least IBM is working on that. ;-)

Rick



----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Bellina" <jbellina@saintmarys.edu>

I've stayed away from this just because of its complexity, but I do
want to comment on the renter issue, but not with regard to taxes.

I think we all agree that there are substantial energy savings to
be made in home heating and cooling by improving insulation.
However, it is not clear how to do that in a rental situation when
the renter is paying for the heating and cooling. Improving
insulation is a capitol improvement that belongs to the owner, so the
renter is not inclined to do it. Installing the insulation costs
money and there is not economic benefit to the owner, so they are not
inclined to do it.

Has anyone seen a solution to this catch 22? It is especially
important in lower income housing where the homes are old and very
poorly insulated.

joe

Joseph J. Bellina, Jr. Ph.D.
Professor of Physics
Saint Mary's College
Notre Dame, IN 46556

On Apr 15, 2009, at 9:45 AM, Rick Tarara wrote:


----- Original Message -----
From: "Rauber, Joel" <Joel.Rauber@SDSTATE.EDU>

While perhaps technically correct, in the sense that the
landlord's (or
their designate holder of the property mortgage)signature is the
name on
the check sent to the property tax authority. As a practical
matter the
renters are paying the tax, since it is usually a part of the rent
that
they are paying. I always figured that my rent was paying the
property
tax when I rented.
_______________________________________________

However...(lots of those in these discussions) what's the property
tax for a
typical apartment--multi-family buildings. Bet it is not the
$2-5000 that
the home owners are paying--and for the same services. That's part
of the
problem with taxes...depending on where you are standing you are
either
getting lots of services for almost no money (damn sales taxes
though--but
wait, earned income credit can get some of that back) or else you
are paying
hundreds of times what the guy a few blocks away is paying--all for
the same
set of government services.

Consider where we are (College or University)...a grounds keeper maybe
making $20,000, a full professor, maybe $100,000, and the football
coach at
$2,000,000. Consider how much each pays in and what each gets out--in
government services. Now fold in you political, sociological,
religious,
economic, ethical, whatever viewpoints and we will never agree on
what is
fair and equitable.

The real question (and again one on which there will be no
consensus) is
what is the proper role of government? How much should it do and
control.
The American experience has been one of moving that line back and
forth
constantly, but always within somewhat reasonable barriers--at both
ends.
Is that changing? Has it changed drastically in the last decade?

Life is not fair, not meant to be fair, and taxes are a prime
example of
this! ;-)

Rick


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_______________________________________________
Forum for Physics Educators
Phys-l@carnot.physics.buffalo.edu
https://carnot.physics.buffalo.edu/mailman/listinfo/phys-l