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Re: [Phys-l] Washington Times on NSA SAPs

this is a reply when we were at NAU.

-------------------

There's another important point -- the purpose of secrecy is to enable the govt. to continue as a plutocracy / cleptocracy. What they keep secret is not secret to those bombed, etc. The so called secret bombing of Cambodia and Laos was no secret to them or the neighboring people, just to us. Abu Ghraib was no secret to Iraq either. Do you think Osama et al. is ignorant about 'phone taps? Why do you think his org. uses runners? The purpose of the 'phone taps is to find enemies of the state, e.g. you and me.
The second point's reason is to ensure the tap is for a legitimate reason, to ensure the info. is for a prosecution not retaliation, not political punishment, not a moral crusade *, etc.


* My opinion of librarians continues to rise:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/16/AR2006021602066.html

bc, victim of a mail check

p.s. PHYS-L-POL; how do we do this?

Jack Uretsky wrote:

Hi all-
I agree with Michael's first comment.
The second comment fails to address the real problem. The real
illegality is not the listening, it is the listening without first
obtaining approval of the supervising (secret) court. Why is that
necessary? Suppose someone who disagrees with Michael loses funding
because illegal listening disclosed his disagreement. Or that Michael
loses his job because his support was insufficiently enthusiastic.
Would that be the way of life we are trying to preserve?
Regards,
Jack

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006, Monce, Michael N. wrote:


2 comments:
=20
1) Isn't it about time we started a "PHYS-L-POL"? i,e, a "physics t=
eaching but I'd rather make political statements list"
=20
2) What if one of those wiretaps has prevented, or will prevent, an =
attack that could have killed 1000's? What value does one put on the =
safety of a country's people? Does one expose "black" programs that =
could be of enormous benefit for our security in the name of public n=
eed-to-know? How many people have been reported to have been picked =
up by the government as a result of these "millions" of wiretaps? If=
it was even in the hundreds, I would bet the media would be all over=
it. So I must assume that the programs are not being used to coerce =
the population. These are literally life and death questions. The p=
rimary difference I see today in the US is that some of the populatio=
n refuse to believe that we are in a war, while others see a lethal c=
onflict, albeit much different from any we have been in before. Whic=
h side do you want to bet your, and your family's, personal security =
on?
=20
Mike Monce
=20

________________________________

=46rom: Forum for Physics Educators on behalf of Bernard Cleyet
Sent: Sat 1/14/2006 8:30 PM
To: PHYS-L@LISTS.NAU.EDU
Subject: Re: Washington Times on NSA SAPs



reported by UNDERNEWS [20060111]

WHISTLEBLOWER: MILLIONS OF AMERICANS CAUGHT IN NSA DRAGNET

DOUG IRELAND, DIRELAND - ABC's "Nightline" last night aired a
terrifying scoop: a former senior insider at the National Security
Agency said that the agency has illegally spied on "millions" of
Americans who make telephone calls overseas. Russell Tice, a 20-year
veteran with the NSA turned whistleblower, told ABC: "I specialized i=
n
what's called special access programs," Tice said of his job. "We
called them 'black world' programs and operations." But now, Tice tol=
d
ABC News that some of those secret "black world" operations run by th=
e
NSA were conducted in ways that he believes violated the law. He said
he is prepared to tell Congress all he knows about the alleged
wrongdoing in these programs run by the Defense Department snd the
National Security Agency in the post-9/11 efforts to go after
terrorists. . .

According to Tice, NSA intelligence analysts use the information to
develop graphs that resemble spiderwebs linking one suspect's phone
number to hundreds or even thousands more. Tice said the number of
Americans subject to eavesdropping by the NSA could be in the million=
s
if the full range of secret NSA programs is used. "That would mean fo=
r
most Americans that if they conducted, or you know, placed an oversea=
s
communication, more than likely they were sucked into that vacuum," T=
ice
said.

http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2006/01/abcs_scoop_mill.html

ABC INTERVIEW
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=3D1491889

Reminds me of the comment from my friendly dope supplier [ca. 1980] w=
hen
he saw my address book: "Just what the police like to find."

bc, thinks the above admission is nothing new if Tice is correct.

p.s. I see; the people who represent us and channel our taxes mustn'=
t
know how they are spent.

Brian Whatcott wrote:


I found something disturbing about this piece.
I have not independently confirmed it.

Brian W

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ex-official warned against testifying on NSA programs
By Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
January 12, 2006


The National Security Agency has warned a former intelligence office=

r that

he should not testify to Congress about accusations of illegal act=

ivity at

NSA because of the secrecy of the programs involved.
Renee Seymour, director of NSA special access programs stated i=

n a

Jan. 9 letter to Russ Tice that he should not testify about secret e=

lectronic

intelligence programs because members and staff of the House and S=

enate

intelligence committees do not have the proper security clearances=

for

the secret intelligence.
Miss Seymour stated that Mr. Tice has "every right" to speak to
Congress and that NSA has "no intent to infringe your rights."
However, she stated that the programs Mr. Tice took part in wer=

e

so secret that "neither the staff nor the members of the
[House intelligence committee] or [Senate intelligence committee] ar=

e

cleared to receive the information covered by the special access
programs, or SAPs."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






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just before leading them into the Little Big Horn Valley