Chronology Current Month Current Thread Current Date
[Year List] [Month List (current year)] [Date Index] [Thread Index] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Date Prev] [Date Next]

[Phys-L] Re: ID defenders



At 23:42 -0400 8/24/05, R. McDermott wrote:

Is it even remotely possible, Jack, that these examples might represent
different organisms that developed and died out rather than a progressive
"improvement" of a single organism? How does one test the hypothesis?
Sure, it's a likely explanation for what we can observe, but can we be
certain that there is no other possible explanation for the observations?
Would it be inconsistent, for example, for these to be "dead ends" stemming
FROM a "human" precursor? Tied up in all this, of course, is our degree of
confidence in dating technology.

Not being a paleontologist, I cannot speak with any great authority,
but it is my understanding that they seem to be pretty convinced that
your alternative hypotheses are not realistic. I cannot specify the
specific evidence that they would cite, but certainly the relative
ages of the layers in which the bones were found are relevant, and
the radioactive dating is really a pretty good clock, and it is
entirely consistent with the evidence of the geologic strata--that
is, we do not find relative geologic ages and radioactive ages to be
inconsistent. The techniques of radioactive dating are not terribly
difficult to understand, although actually carrying out the analyses
is not without its sources of error. But the ages specified for the
fossils that make up the human lineage are all found by several
mutually consistent methods, not just a single one that might leave
things open to question.

On the other hand, I do agree with your comments about the
impossibility of "proving" scientific concepts to be finally correct.
The best we can do is provide compelling evidence for their validity
(which usually includes evidence from several independent but
consistent sources), or we can prove them false.

As John Mallinckrodt has cogently pointed out, there is no proving or
disproving of ID or other religious doctrines, since they are not
science-based. In fact they are not even hypotheses, since the only
thing they claim is that the evidence for evolution is flawed,
spotty, incomplete, or incorrect (take your pick), and so therefore,
since evolution is clearly wrong, our alternative must be correct. I
know of no scientific theory that is based totally on negative
evidence against its alternatives.

Of course, if ID were to put forth some evidence *for* its validity,
then it would be testable and it could be shown to be false. Since
they are not interested in establishing its truth except by
establishing the apparent falsity of evolution, they will never be
coerced into providing any evidence for their ideas. One of the most
famous of the creationist books is entitled "Evidence Against
Evolution." There seems to be no comparable text entitled "Evidence
for Creationism," or something similar, and there likely never will
be, since all they have ever done is provide what they claim to be
negative evidence regarding evolution. There is, I believe one
exception to my last statement, namely the so-called "Paluxy
footprints," which are reputed human footprints fossilized in the
same geologic stratum as a set of claimed dinosaur footprints, found
in the Paluxy River Valley, in Texas. However this evidence has been
so thoroughly refuted that only the most rabid of the creationists
still consider this "evidence" to have any credibility.

Their goal is to keep evolution on the defensive, and not give its
advocates any target to counterattack. In that they have been pretty
effective. Arguing against creationism (in any of its guises,
including ID) is much like punching a balloon.

As to the issue of oogenesis, that is a red herring raised only by
the creationists. Evolution does not and never has even addressed the
issue of the origin of life. That is an as yet unsolved question
(after all, we don't even have a very good definition of what *life*
is) and the proper response of any scientist to the question of how
life arose must be, "I don't know." It is not a question that
evolution deals with. It only considers the explanation and
implications of the observed fact that living forms change with time.
I don't see how anyone can dispute that observation, and the ID folks
don't. Their claim is that at least some of those changes occur by
means that evolution cannot account for (and there may be some that
are not yet explained in terms of evolutionary theory, but that only
means that evolution is an "evolving" theory, and just because it
hasn't explained all the observations yet doesn't mean that it cannot
do so or never will do so). Where the ID folks go wrong is their
claim that because we don't know how certain things happened now, we
cannot know and therefore they remain in the realm of the
supernatural. This is known as the "god of the gaps" argument--that
is, whatever we can't explain now remains in the hands of God. Of
course that means an ever decreasing sphere of influence for God as
we explain more and more of the previously unexplained. I don't think
many responsible theologians give such ideas much credence.

Hugh
--

Hugh Haskell
<mailto:haskell@ncssm.edu>
<mailto:hhaskell@mindspring.com>

(919) 467-7610

Never ask someone what computer they use. If they use a Mac, they
will tell you. If not, why embarrass them?
--Douglas Adams
******************************************************