[Phys-L] Re: Are Prisoners More Religious? (was: god friendly science)

[Hugh Haskell <hhaskell@MINDSPRING.COM>]

At 10:17 -0500 5/27/05, Richard Tarara wrote:
> It would be wonderful if there were any reliable data here with which to
> apply the 'scientific method', but (again an opinion) you aren't going to
> get it.  People lie!  They tell half-truths (how many on the list would
> [have] identified themselves with a religion that they don't _really_
> believe in).  Those in prison can have ulterior motives for appearing
> 'religious'.  You would need to do extensive interviews with the
> respondents hooked up to lie detectors to (maybe) get the kind of data that
> we could analyze 'scientifically'.   All of which leads me back to
> (slightly more than opinion because of all the factors Brian listed in
> questioning the survey) that the data provided by Hugh is pretty useless.
I never claimed that data was definitive. In fact I pointed out
several possible reasons why it could either be wrong, or not have
any causal connection with me original assertion. However, even if
the data were off by a factor of 10, the percentage of atheists in
prison would be less than 2%. It would take a factor of at least 50
error to bring it up to the level of the general population.

And just how could one get this data in any sort of single or
double-blind manner? We typically find out about people's beliefs by
asking them. I know of no other reliable way of doing it (and asking
isn't all that reliable--the data depends strongly on how the
questions are asked, and where they are asked). Questionnaires that
ask all sorts of other questions and then infer beliefs from the
collection of answers are notoriously unreliable, to say nothing of
reflecting the biases of the people who made up the questionnaires.

If you ask about religious preference in a prison where the local
Pentacostal church has set up some sort of program that give those
prisoners in it some sort of privilege, then it is likely that there
will suddenly turn out to be a whole lot of Pentacostals among the
inmates. I'm not sure how one works around this problem, but then I'm
not in the public opinion polling business, so I guess I shouldn't be
expected to know.

It is important to remember, however, that just because someone may
be "unchurched" doesn't mean that they are an "unbeliever." I suspect
that the number of atheists among the unchurched is probably
comparable to the fraction of atheists among the population as a
whole. Perhaps larger, but not hugely larger.

And I think the issue that brought this up was the claim, or at least
mention of such claims, that morality requires religion to be viable.
That statement I could not disagree with more. While there are many
moral religious people, there are also lots of immoral ones,
certainly including many of the big name TV preachers who have gotten
into trouble by fleecing their flocks, dallying with the faithful,
and misusing the funds entrusted to them to do "God's work." One also
must include those who assert "God-given" healing power and then are
shown to use very man-made technology to fool the gullible and
desperate supplicants.

I also put in the immoral category those creationists and their
running dogs who insist on using false or misleading information to
attempt to bolster their case for their religious position, even
after it has been conclusively shown to them that their claims are
false and they have admitted to it in public. Frequently they move on
to the next forum and make the same bogus claims all over again. When
scientists do things like that they are properly drummed out of the
profession. When creationists do it, they are praised to the skies by
the faithful. I see little morality there.

On the other hand, the atheists I know tend to be highly moral
people, with a finely-tuned sense of right and wrong. They examine
situations and come to conclusions based on rational thought and not
on some ancient writing that may or may not be relevant. Their moral
decisions are designed to make life for humans better, rather than to
satisfy some vengeful god.

Of course there are exceptions, but I assert that atheists are no
more immoral than are religious people, and I suspect, but won't
claim it here, that they may well be more moral.

Hugh
--

Hugh Haskell
<mailto:haskell@ncssm.edu>
<mailto:hhaskell@mindspring.com>

(919) 467-7610

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