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Re: Math and Physics Teacher partnership?



For all of you who are opposed to the notion of 'physics first', take a
look at what your colleagues overseas are doing. How many of you have
been impressed by the content knowledge possessed by foreign students?
The reason is simple, they don't encounter physics for the first time in
their final year of secondary school. Rather, they've had bits and
pieces all along. Part of my student teaching was at a sixth form
centre in the UK. If I compare the depth of understanding those
students had to that of my current US high school, well, there's no
comparison. The UK students (weren't all British, one class had
representatives from five continents) had experienced physics throughout
their education. As a result, when we studied electronics, we looked at
the behavior of RLC circuits, where as in the US, I'm lucky if we can
distinguish series from parallel.
Certainly there are some topics in physics that don't require
knowledge of advanced math concepts and therefore could be dealt with
prior to the real 'physics' course. Or at least, there are ways of
approaching some concepts that won't doom the concrete-reasoners to
certain failure. This would allow the 'physics' teachers to spend more
time on real physics instead of devoting a large chunk of the year to
things like kinematics(algebra). I too would blow this off as some
idealized situation if I hadn't seen it in action.
Cheers,
Matt

"An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a
very narrow field."

- Niels Bohr


-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for Physics Educators [mailto:PHYS-L@list1.ucc.nau.edu] On
Behalf Of RAUBER, JOEL
Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 12:44 PM
To: PHYS-L@LISTS.NAU.EDU
Subject: Re: Math and Physics Teacher partnership?

Daryl,

I won't echo what others have said, however, it strikes me that you must
have unusual bosses in the first couple of rungs above you in the
hierarchy. Could you tell us more about their reaction to your
admirable, IMO, adherence to standards?

PS, have a few more beers anyway :-)

I'm of the opinion that physics first has been occuring all along in
many places. We called it 9th grade physical science at my high school.

________________________
Joel Rauber
Department of Physics - SDSU

Joel.Rauber@sdstate.edu
605-688-4293



| -----Original Message-----
| From: Forum for Physics Educators
| [mailto:PHYS-L@list1.ucc.nau.edu] On Behalf Of Daryl L. Taylor
| Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 7:02 PM
| To: PHYS-L@LISTS.NAU.EDU
| Subject: Re: Math and Physics Teacher partnership?
|
|
| It's been a long day. It's been a longer week. Please forgive
| me if I attack the 'physics first' statement Scott ends with.
|
| This '...I spend 30% of my curriculum time teaching and
| reteaching algebra...' is a touchy topic to most physics
| teachers, let alone the Math teachers, I've bumped into
| across the country. When and where do we end 'math' and where
| and when do we begin 'physics'. My answer is simple. Teach
| physics. Not Math. If the kids can't handle the Math needed,
| it's on them. PERIOD.
|
| I have degrees in both Physics and Math. (Got Math 1st, by
| the by... Moved into Physics because I could finally see
| where all that Math was going...) Have taught both Math and
| Physics. 28 years. So, before the gripes start, I've been
| there and done 'that'. Hopefully, the best 'that' that could
| be done. At least by me.
|
| As Physics teachers/professors, our job is simply to teach
| physics. It would be nice if we had the time and resources to
| teach everything, but ain't happnin'. I see very little
| argument there. If an Honors Physics 11th grade student walks
| into my classroom and can't handle the Algebra II or Trig I
| that is required to do the basic vector analysis at the
| beginning of the course, sorry. See you later. By the same
| token, if an AP 12th grader walks in and can't handle the
| basic Calculus, sorry. I will always help a kid who is
| deficient in the maths and/or point him/her in the direction
| of a good Math teacher who can help. However, if I take time
| out of my tight Physics schedule to teach something that is a
| basic needed pre-requisite, I'm defeating myself and, worse, the kids!
|
| Would you take time out of your Physics curriculum to teach a
| student to read the text? To use the Internet for assistance?
| I think not. We all do that on our OWN time anyway. You would
| do all these outside of class, but would NOT take class time
| away from all the others. Why do it for Math. If the student
| isn't prepared for the math necessary for a successful
| physics understanding, why hold back others by wasting their
| time? And, yes, I typed and meant 'wasting'.
|
| I'm sure this is coming across as callous and/or uncaring.
| Sigh... In a perfect world, like Seti Alpha V, ALL students
| would be totally prepared and eager to consume our
| experiences. This is the Planet Earth. They aren't. We can't.
| I see this as a 'made-up' dilemma. Too many students who
| aren't prepared to learn are suddenly slammed into that
| 'Physics Wall'. All of a sudden, it's our fault. I don't buy it.
|
| And as for 'Physics First'? Geez! I need a few more beers
| before I tackle that mess again...
|
| Teach Physics.
|
| Daryl L. Taylor, Fizzix Guy
| Greenwich HS, CT