Re: book sharing (was: Re: Pedagogy)

[Larry Smith <larry.smith@SNOW.EDU>]

At 1:30 PM -0400 5/4/04, Pamela L. Gay wrote:

> I must disagree.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

> While $125 seems to be an insignificant amount compared
> to the $1000+ in tuition a state college student may pay or to the
> $40,000+ a private school student may pay, that $125 may be the amount
> that breaks the camel's financial back.

We obviously disagree on the value of a well-written textbook.

> That $125 your student is spending on 1 book may be 4 weeks worth of
> food, or a significant portion of one month's rent, or their entire
> clothing budget for the semester. For many students, every dollar they
> spend is a dollar they have to earn. The $125 book may be 10+ hours
> spent working instead of studying. It is also only 1 of many books they
> may be asked to purchase.
>
> Don't forget, there are students whose parents aren't helping them who
> can't get FinAid because their parents earn too much (The Gov't asks how
> much your parents make, not how much they're willing to share).

Everything you say is true as far as it goes, but in my experience "where
there's a will there's a way" to attend college.

I teach at a two-year college in a rural, depressed area of the state.
(Just for reference, the local public school district is very near the
bottom of per pupil spending in the state which is dead last (by a long
way) in per pupil spending in the country.)  I don't see any students who
have had to quit school because of book costs.  I see many students who
have a better lifestyle than I did as a student, and even than I do now.
And 2/3 of them have some kind of financial aid or scholarship.

I'm not disputing the cases you cite, I just think they are very rare.

> Do we want to burden our students with debt?

Debt is generally a "bad thing" for students and families, but education is
one of the few justifiable reasons.

> Do we want them to have to work full time while going to school?

Not if they don't have to.  Yes, if it is the only way they can go to school.
But there really are lots of grants and financial aid available, more so
all the time.  I simply don't believe it is harder (financially) to get
through college now than it was a generation or two ago, for the vast
majority of people.

> The example of the student living in the college library in NYC should
> be a constant reminder that some students are doing everything they can
> to get an education, but everything they can just isn't enough to make
> ends meet.

When the college officials found out about it they gave him a free dorm.

> Instead of punishing our students for finding ways to not go as much
> into debt,

I don't think it is punishing the students to try to give them the best
education we can.

> perhaps a better solution would be to distribute lecture notes

I'm not in principle against lecture notes, but I am against them as a
replacement for a well-written textbook.  I want my students to have two
perspectives and viewpoints through the material (mine and the author's).
Furthermore, I teach so many different classes (almost every math and
physics class we offer plus occasionally music, philosophy, science ed, and
computer science) that I'm not as much an expert in any one of them as I
expect good textbook authors to be.

> and urge publishers to lower book costs any way they can (do we
> really need so many color images?).

We've had the textbook cost discussion on this list before.  I, too, am
dismayed at the rate of textbook price increases.

However, I think color diagrams can have some beneficial pedagogical
effect; to that extent I'm in favor of them.

> I've worked in publishing and
> understand the problems turning a profit in such a narrow market. I
> still feel that many ways to lower book prices exist.

This may be; we ought to explore them.


At 3:31 PM -0400 5/4/04, Pamela L. Gay wrote:
> I think quizes should be used to test the students' conceptual knowledge
> rather than to check that they read a specific book.

It sounds as if you are referring to after-the-fact quizzes; I like to use
short easy pre-quizzes to assess whether the students have come to class
prepared to learn.  Maybe this could still be done, as you say, from a
different text, but it would be harder to design quizzes that way, I think.

> When it comes to the question of purchasing or sharing text books,
> students have to worry about the costs they face *now.* Being able to
> double their future earnings won't matter if they can't finish the
> semester because they have to move home because they can't pay their
> rent. No, college isn't a right, but why should we put unnecessary
> financial walls in front of intelligent, driven students who really want
> their degrees but are poor.

I still say, "where there is a will there is a way" even for poor students.
I've seen this borne out many many times.

> I'd much rather have a class of students who
> want to be in my classroom and who have to use library books, than a
> class of rich kids who consider college just another entitlement and a
> new book just one more charge on mommy or daddy's credit card.

I don't think those are usually the alternatives.

> This subject is particularly close to me because I have watched several
> people leave college (in most cases permanently) because they had to
> select between bills or tuition. It's painful to watch, and
> heartbreaking for them to live through and to live with.

As I say, I'm not calling you a liar, I just don't think that has to happen
very often in our societal climate of helping people go to college.  I just
asked a bunch of my students and they have never heard of a student
dropping out because they couldn't afford the textbook.  Even the one who
admits to a bit of book sharing in a couple of classes said that if he felt
he really needed the book himself, he'd get it and not drop out.

Maybe we run in different circles.

Cheers,
Larry