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*From*: "Folkerts, Timothy" <FolkertsT@BARTONCCC.EDU>*Date*: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 14:39:34 -0600

I just noticed the Bernoulli effect in action in an everyday situation I

haven't seen described before. I was filling a cup from a slow faucet.

When the cup was well below the faucet, the water splashed and air bubbles

were forced under the surface as it filled the cup. When the cup was close

to the faucet, it flowed in smoothly.

Well, as I brought the cup upward through the transition, I notice some of

the bubbles remained. They were held directly under the stream of water

entering the cup. The stream pushed them down while buoyancy pushed them

up. Bernoulli kept them from going off to either side and returning to the

surface.

Sort of the reverse of the "ping pong ball above a stream of air" demo.

Tim

Instructor of Physics

Barton County Community College

Great Bend, KS

620-792-9320

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do

nothing." Edmund Burke

-----Original Message-----

From: John Denker [mailto:jsd@AV8N.COM]

Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 11:20 AM

To: PHYS-L@lists.nau.edu

Subject: Re: Schrodinger equation origins

Quoting Bob Sciamanda <trebor@VELOCITY.NET>:

1)Why did S use a first order time derivative and not a 2nd order timedifferential

derivative as in the "standard" wave equation: (d/dx)^2 PHI(x,t) =

Const*(d/dt)^2 PHI(x,t)? and

2) Why is the imaginary (i) necessary?

1) The wave function PHI(x,t) is to be a complete description of the

particle's state at any time t. This means that the governing

equation must be able to develop PHI(x,t) solely from a knowledge of ofenvironment,

PHI(x,0), where t=0 is any convenient "starting" time. This requires the

governing differential (Wave) equation to be first order in time

derivatives. A second order time derivative in the wave equation would

require a knowledge of both PHI(x,0) and (d/dt) PHI(x,0) as initial

conditions, and PHI(x,0) would not alone be a complete state description.

(In the same way, the second order N2: F=m*(d/dt)^2 x(t) requires a

knowledge of both the position x and the velocity dx/dt as initial

conditions to specify and develop a particle state - given the

F)

I find that argument unconvincing for several reasons.

(I also have doubts about the historicity of that line

of reasoning, but let's not go there but rather stick

to the technical issues.)

First of all, why do we think we are obliged to "develop PHI(x,t)

solely from a knowledge of of PHI(x,0)"?? I don't recall that

requirement being graven on any stone tablets.

In more detail: To be specific, let's consider the case of the

Schrödinger equation for the motion of an alpha particle. We

know that the massive scalar Klein-Gordon equation is a *better*

description of the physics (better than the Schrödinger equation),

and is second-order in time.

As a second, independent argument: Since the wavefunction is

complex, to develop PHI(x,t) from initial conditions involves

knowing the RealPart *and* the ImaginaryPart of PHI(x,0) which

is more that we can ever know. Classical mechanics only tells

us |PHI|^2 and QM burdens us with the Heisenberg uncertainty

principle. So the whole argument about developing PHI from

given initial conditions is a non-starter.

To pile on additional evidence, we can turn the "first order"

argument on its head: because the Schrödinger equation is first

order in time and second order in space, it *cannot* withstand

scrutiny of its short-time behavior. Zitterbewegung and all that.

In summary: It was a very bold stroke for Schrödinger to propose

a wave equation that was first order in time. We should not try

to "explain" it with Kiplingesque just-so stories; that would be

unfaithful to the physics and to the history.

http://www.boop.org/jan/justso/camel.htm

As for question (2), if you've got a parabolic differential

equation (first order in time, second order in space) you need

a factor of i or you haven't got a wave equation at all, but

rather a diffusion equation. To say the same thing, the

Schrödinger equation is in some sense second-order in time

already, since it involves two coupled differential equations

(one for the RP and one for the IP). Without the factor of i,

the two parts decouple and the resulting equation cannot

describe wavelike behavior.

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