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Re: the Zapno (tm) anti-static device and dishonesty



"Propaganda, lying, etc., is a matter
of intention: if someone is intentionally distoring a concept in order to
make money or win a fight, they're no longer dealing with the "truth." If
the same person deeply believes those same concepts, then that's
different."

Thank you Bill.


and: "If there were absolute liability for the veracity of medical and
pharmaceutical
claims, all physicians and druggists were quacks.
Examples?
arthroscopic knee surgery
copper anti-rheumatic bracelets.

Brian"

I didn't write all of the below, only:

What if one believed in the claim -- is that lying?

A Bill Moyers video discussed lying -- I think his conclusion is one had to
know it was untrue for it to be a lie. There is, likely, absolute
liability in
such matters, so one could be convicted of quackery.

bc

Again, as someone suggested, one must read the law. However, I suspect it is
illegal to sell certain devices (such as Violet Ray generators) with the claim that
it has therapeutic use, whether the seller believes it or not.

bc who bought (I'm certain legally - no claims.) a Violet Ray set.

P.s. Some (BW) mentioned arthroscopic knee surgery as an example of quackery . I
don't know about that surgery, but I was scheduled for thoracic surgery (fusion of
three vertebrae) because of severe back pain. Fortunately, just before, an article
on lumbar surgery in the "New Yorker" suggested the result might be worse.
Further, a long time Psychiatrist friend said he wouldn't let a surgeon near his
neck 'till he tried everything else, and recommended a book by Sarno and a Yoga
teacher colleague. My back pain is now minor and infrequent. Laudate Deum!


At 09:38 PM 7/30/02, Bernard, you wrote:
While ethical standards or actual laws may vary, dishonesty does not.
Whether legal or not, lying to your customers is still lying. In 1920,
selling radium and cocaine as "cure-all" medicine was just as dishonest
then as it is today, only the legality has changed.

What if one believed in the claim -- is that lying?

A Bill Moyers video discussed lying -- I think his conclusion is one had to
know it was untrue for it to be a lie. There is, likely, absolute
liability in
such matters, so one could be convicted of quackery.

bc

Brian Whatcott
Altus OK Eureka!



William Beaty wrote:

On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Jack Uretsky wrote:

Yes, and what does that law say?

Except for that website I don't have further info. I just thought the
section number for the law might help anyone who wants to track it down.
It sounds like the law is directed against "misleading or false claims"
regarding medical devices.

And give please give your quote in
context.

I stripped out some context? Which quote do you mean? The one about
truth isn't a quote, that's how *I* personally define truth. Reality
usually requires interpretation, so "truth" is often in the eyes of the
beholder. But time after time I see dishonest people on the newsgroups
being backed into a corner, and then they come up with the usual statement
"oh yeah, well truth is relative!" But that's only valid for people
dedicated to intellectual honesty. Propaganda, lying, etc., is a matter
of intention: if someone is intentionally distoring a concept in order to
make money or win a fight, they're no longer dealing with the "truth." If
the same person deeply believes those same concepts, then that's
different.

Ah, I see how to say it. There are two different spectra: lying versus
truth-telling, and mistaken vs. accurate. If I believe what I'm telling
you, then I'm not lying to you (I'm telling the "truth".) However my
"truth" might be mistaken, or it might be one of several possible
viewpoints.

On Tue, 30 Jul 2002, William Beaty wrote:

On Tue, 30 Jul 2002, Jack Uretsky wrote:

I wish that people who bandy the word "illegal" would identify the
law that they are referring to.

I just saw an example yesterday. The "violet ray" quack medical devices
were banned by the FDA decades ago. The Museum of Quack Medical Devices
mentioned FDA Section 502(a), misbranding: making false or misleading
statements:

Violet Ray Generators
http://www.mtn.org/quack/devices/uv.htm

Electrical quack devices
http://www.mtn.org/quack/devices/eleclinx.htm

Is "static electricity" the cause of most motion sickness? If not, then
in the USA Mr. Thorp would be in violation of a federal law.


Most such uses that I've seen are in the
same category as urban legends. Also, questions of ethics need to be
taken in the context of specific ethical schemes. Ethical standards for
lawyers, for example, appear to be quite different in Illinois and in
Georgia.

While ethical standards or actual laws may vary, dishonesty does not.
Whether legal or not, lying to your customers is still lying. In 1920,
selling radium and cocaine as "cure-all" medicine was just as dishonest
then as it is today, only the legality has changed.

Lying is an absolute: an intentional act. We can even use this fact to
define what "truth" is. "Truth" may be a multivalued entity which is in
the eye of the beholder, but "truth" also is something very simple:

that which is left over when all the lies and distortions are removed.

(((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb@eskimo.com http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci