Re: How To Recruit Women to Tech and IT Classes

[Hugh Haskell <hhaskell@MINDSPRING.COM>]

> Hugh sez
>
> > Of course, but in our search for "bright individuals" we need to be
> > very careful that we don't send any subtle messages to women and
> > under-represented minority group members that they are either not
> > welcome, or will have a harder time of it because of the group to
> > which they belong. Those schools that have been successful in
> > attracting women into physics have had to work at it, and continue to
> > have to do so.
>
> Wait a minute Hugh, you seem to be equating not actively recruiting physics
> majors with offending students by pushing them out.

That is not what I said. We should be actively recruiting physics
majors *and* not offending students in such a way that we effectively
push them out. If they leave physics after giving it a try, it should
be for the right reasons--they don't have the "fire in the belly" to
do that kind of work, they realize that their talents don't lie in
that direction, whatever--not that the physics department is a bunch
of MCP jerks and they don't want anything to do with that kind of
person, or they are clueless wimps who can't recognize an uninviting
atmosphere when they're standing in the middle of it.

> Why should anyone feel obligated to recruit anyone to any field for which
> s/he doesn't seem suited?  If during an initial advisement meeting one were
> to ask a freshman student what HS courses s/he felt attracted to and s/he
> said English, does anyone here think a proper reply should be "Have you
> considered physics as a major?"

That depends. What if the student's HS grades are mediocre in English
and good in science, esp. physics. If that is the case, your
hypothetical question seems perfectly reasonable to me. The problem,
too often is a counsellor, who when they meet with a student, esp. a
girl who expresses an interest in physics, they actively discourage
them from taking physics--"it's too hard," "what would you do with
it," etc., etc. That kind of thing happens every day in the high
school counsellors' offices throughout the country. The sad part of
that is that most of those counsellors are women.

> Or maybe one would say "Aha!  Here is an unsuspecting female entering
> freshman student, let me see if I can dupe her into a physics major."

Don't be ridiculous!

> What kind of foolishness is being promoted in this thread???

I think most of the foolishness is being promoted by you.

> As for me, as I recall my best physics students have been female and I
> encourage them --- if this is what they want to do.  But then the best
> students in any major are likely to be female.

Does that suggest anything to you? Ask yourself some questions: how
many outstanding male physicists do you know? how many average or
mediocre male physicists do you know? What is the ratio of these two
groups (outstanding vs. average/mediocre)? Now do the same thing for
women. Which of the two ratios is higher? It is my guess that if you
evaluate them honestly, you'll find that the ratio for the women is
higher than that for the men. And that tells me that se do not yet
have equality of opportunity in physics. Only those women who have
well above average intelligence, desire and perseverance will stay
with it. Hence there will be proportionately more outstanding women
in physics than there are outstanding men.

I have heard it said about racial integration, that we will not have
true racial equality until we have the same number of black
scoundrels getting away with it that we have white scoundrels. Have
you seen the feminist T-shirt that says "In order to achieve the same
success as a man a woman has to be twice as good as the man.
Fortunately, that isn't too difficult."? There is a germ of truth
there that should tell us something about physics and women.

> But I am not about to set up a recruiting table in the hall.
>
> Jim Green

Probably a good thing, too. With the attitude you have displayed
here, you'd probably bomb.

I think I am going to withdraw from this debate. I'm starting to say
things I'll probably regret later.

Hugh
--

Hugh Haskell
<mailto://hhaskell@mindspring.com>

Let's face it. People use a Mac because they want to, Windows because they
have to..
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