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Re: Extra Credit (was Where Have All the Boys Gone?)

I'd like to ask something about this "extra credit" discussion. At the
same time, I'd like to keep the posts within the same subject header
(Extra Credit seems good to me).

I understand and agree with Michael Edmiston's point because I think I
agree with his course and grading objectives. I'd appreciate it if all
posters could be more *explicit* about their course and grading
objectives though so I can see the relationship between their use of extra
credit and the purpose.

I see two separate purposes of course assignments. One is to require that
students do some work and then grade them according to the amount of work
they do (see John Cooper's reference to "grades as wages" below). Another
purpose is to assess crucial competencies that students should have to
pass the course. Are there others? In any event, each poster should
indicate their purpose for the work.

Once the purpose is determined, what then is the purpose of the extra
credit? Is it to provide additional opportunities to earn "grades as
wages"? Is it to gives students additional opportunities to demonstrate
mastery of course competencies? Is it to provide movitation for such
mastery? In the attempt to provide motivation, is it just serving to pass
those who haven't mastered the course objectives?

If the extra credit assesses something *different* than the original
mandatory assignments then this implies that completion of the extra
credit does *not* demonstrate achievement of the original (presumably more
important) course objectives.

If, on the other hand, the extra credit assesses *the same thing* as the
original mandatory assignments, then I would call that "replacement"
credit, not extra credit. The replacement credit just provides students
with an alternate avenue for demonstrating mastery of the objectives. Even
if the grades just represent the amount of work done (i.e., "grades as
wages"), extra credit should be called "replacement" credit.

Finally, I'd appreciate it if posters would indicate what their grades
indicate (i.e., what does an A represent, a B represent, etc.).

Thanks.

----------------------------------------------------------
| Robert Cohen Department of Physics |
| East Stroudsburg University |
| bbq@esu.edu East Stroudsburg, PA 18301 |
| http://www.esu.edu/~bbq/ (570) 422-3428 |
----------------------------------------------------------

On Mon, 3 Jul 2000, John Cooper wrote:

I do physical chemistry (purportedly the 'hardest' course in the
chemistry curriculum) and chemistry for non-science majors, a wholly
different clientele.
This year in the course evaluations for both courses comments to the
effect that they demanded too much of the time they were willing to
devote to studies surfaced.
I have not increased the assignments for the course but perhaps because
of diminished study skills and/or in comparison with other courses they
take, students seem to be self-limiting the time and effort they are
willing to put into mastering the material, REGARDLESS the grade that
earns them. My mode in both courses is around a C+/B-, lower than the
mode for the college as a whole. That fact may also affect the incentive
to involve themselves in a venture for which the rewards are perceived to
be too few to merit the work required.
"Grades as wages" strikes me as similar to the problem with extra credit
for extra work, as opposed to extra mastery.


On Mon, 3 Jul 2000, Michael Edmiston wrote:

I am having trouble understanding Richard Tarara's position. His first
sentence is fine, but after than I don't understand his logic. Let me ask
these questions?

(1) Why is it "fine" to offer extra credit to pull up grades? Once the
course requirements are established in the syllabus, I would only change
this if it were clear I had made a gross error in establishing the grading
criteria. This does not preclude offering substitute or make-up work to a
student who had a lengthy illness, or trying to understand why a particular
student might do poorly on exams when it seems clear s/he understands the
material. But why offer "extra credit" work in general?

(2) If extra credit is offered to everyone, and many student complete it,
including some good students who end up with greater than 100%, then the
final exam is made more difficult to make sure we don't have more than 10% A
grades, haven't you created a strong possibility of hurting students like my
son? He didn't do the extra-credit work because he didn't need it and he
isn't a "hurdle jumper." But you wrote an extra-hard final exam to cut down
on the A grades, and he might not do as well on that exam as he would have
if you had stuck with the original game plan. So everyone's exam grades go
down, but the students who did the extra-credit work are okay, and they end
up "edging out" students who did not do the extra-credit work. Or stated
another way, the extra-credit work actually becomes "required work" if you
want an A. But the extra-credit work is not necessarily a good indication
of student ability because...

(3) If the extra-credit work is done "outside class" there is no guarantee
the student turning it in actually did it himself nor is their any guarantee
she did not plagiarize it or have significant help on it. It seems to me
that well written in-class exams are the safest way to find out what the
students know. Extra-credit work merely measures how "hungry" the student
is and/or how much of a "hurdle jumper" s/he is.

There is not enough information here to understand all the dynamics of the
class Richard is describing. But in my 22 years of experience, half of
which I have been department chair, when students are clamoring to get into
a certain professor's course it implies "easy grader."


Michael D. Edmiston, Ph.D. Phone/voice-mail: 419-358-3270
Professor of Chemistry & Physics FAX: 419-358-3323
Chairman, Science Department E-Mail edmiston@bluffton.edu
Bluffton College
280 West College Avenue
Bluffton, OH 45817


On Mon, 3 Jul 2000, Rick Tarara wrote:

[snip]

I would also say that in any course, the student is responsible for their
own grade. If you want an A and if extra credit is the way to get that A,
then it's your responsibility to do the work-regardless. In a sense then,
the 'extra' credit is really just another assignment, and failing to do it
can have its consequences. I think students are smart enough to understand
that. The point being that you CAN get an A without doing any extra credit,
but depending on your skills, you may NEED the extra credit to attain the
desired grade. My point was that it should NOT be possible to gain a very
high grade, certainly not an A or maybe even A- without a strong
demonstration of a core set of skills and knowledge and it is then a mistake
to structure a course so that this could happen with extra credit. The
basic philosophy of using extra credit however, I think is one of personal
choice for the instructor.

Rick