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Re: Judgement on opposing airfoil views, pt. 1



I should really stay out of this discussion since I know next to nothing
about all this, BUT:

----- Original Message -----
From: William Beaty <billb@ESKIMO.COM>

On Thu, 26 Aug 1999, Richard Tarara wrote:

There is NO upwash without the wing (in motion) being present.

Obviously!

The upwash
HAS to be caused by the wing doing _something_ to the air.

Hi Rich! Right. However, if the wing created the chordwise circulation
in the distant past, then, in a nonviscous simplified model, that
circulation continues conceivably forever. That circulation is similar to
a coasting wheel. It inherently contains this idea: equal amounts of
upwash and downwash. If we think of the region of the chordwise
circulation as being a flywheel, we would state it like this: "one bit of
the flywheel accelerates another bit of the flywheel, and the forces
between them sum to zero and do not produce a net force upon the axel of
the flywheel." If we describe the air surrounding the wing, we would say
"one air-parcel in the pattern of chordwise circulation accelerates
another parcel of the same pattern of circulation, but the forces between
them sum to zero and do not produce a net lifting force upon the airfoil
as a whole."


BUT: Since the plane can now climb (increased lift) or descend (decreased
lift) it must be able to affect this circulation almost immediately. I
therefore have troubles imagining the circulation model where the wing is
not CONTINUOUSLY applying forces to the air (for both the upwash and
downwash).


Define this
process _exactly_ and perhaps some of the conflicts will be resolved.

That's the problem because the definition is different in a 2D model than
in a 3D model. In a 3D model, those darned wake-vortices behind the wing
make the downwash NOT behave as part of a spinning flywheel of chordwise
circulating air. As a result, a 2D crossection of a 3D airflow does NOT
resemble the air-flow surrounding a traditional "infinite wing" 2D flow
simulation. This issue causes Bernoulli-ists and Newton-ists to
constantly be at each other's throats.

To me it looks simple: dump the 2D model, and declare that it's just too
simple to explain the flight of a 3D craft. Use a 3D fluid flow
simulator, and maybe simplify things by investigating 2D flow-pattern
crossections of the complete 3D flow pattern. The staunch Bernoulli-ists
say "No, we will not do this", but they do not give any good reason for
their stance, and do not show me why my assertion is flawed. I say this:
(and have said it for years): "By simplifying the 3D airflow and placing
it into a 2D world, the loss of degrees-of-freedom has profoundly changed
the physics of flight, and as a result, a 2D flow simulation does not at
all describe the physics of a 3D wing in level flight at high altitude."

The Bernoulli-ists say "No, you're wrong", but do not show me why my
assertion is faulty.


In both the VERY SIMPLIFIED pressure difference model or the VERY SIMPLIFIED
'air thrown down' model, there is a net change in momentum in the air (time
averaged from just before the wing arives at a particular region and just
after it leaves) since the air originally has ZERO momentum (ignoring any
winds). In the pressure model the higher pressure under the wing and the
individual molecular collisions under the wing produce a net downward
momentum when compared to the collisions above the wing in the low pressure
region. [In this VERY SIMPLIFIED model there is no need for any 'wholesale'
deflection of air downwards although the model omits any explanation of
_exactly_ how the pressure difference is formed other than air moving faster
over the top of the wing than the bottom.] Yet this momentum change is
somewhat conceptually different than that achieved by the wholesale
deflection of air by collision with the exposed underside of the wing OR the
wholesale deflection downwards off the back of the wing caused by the wing
shape/attitude. These differences in analysis are what I have assumed to be
the difference in the Bernoulli/Newton split--at least at a very simplified
and fundamental level. Again, in both models there IS a net change in the
momentum of the air (downwards) to provide the upwards change in the
momentum of the plane.

Now from all the postings I realize it is not this simple, but might some of
the problems be (as Jack has suggested) that in talking about the momentum
change there confusion about the nomenclature? To be in William's camp (I
think!), I really can't see that what the air does, long after the plane has
passed, as being very relevant to the process of flying.

{Experiment: Use a balloon to lift a powerful jet aircraft high into the
air and hold it at rest relative to the air. Release the plane and fire up
the very powerful engines. Does the plane not develop lift AS SOON as it
starts moving forward? Certainly long before any forces conveyed by the air
molecules transmitting a force to the ground and back could occur.}

Rick

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Richard W. Tarara
Department of Chemistry & Physics
Notre Dame, IN 46556
219-284-4664
rtarara@saintmarys.edu

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